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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Teenager guilty of murder.

955 replies

placemats · 23/06/2023 13:26

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/23/teenager-guilty-baby-herefordshire-hide-pregnancy-paris-mayo

Apart from the fact that she was raped, if consent to sex is to be a legal term, I find the prosecutions allegations appalling.

'But the prosecution alleged Mayo must have known she was pregnant but chose to deliberately conceal it because she was always planning to kill the baby.'

Perhaps Mayo didn't get early abortion help she needed. I know of one woman, who had 3 previous children, who didn't realise she was pregnant, thought it was early menopause until 4 weeks before her due date. However to allege she was always planning to kill the baby is a step too far. It intimates that those in authority know this child's mind.

Teenager guilty of murdering baby in Herefordshire to hide pregnancy

Paris Mayo, now 19, violently assaulted newborn in 2019 to stop family finding out about the birth

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/23/teenager-guilty-baby-herefordshire-hide-pregnancy-paris-mayo

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placemats · 25/06/2023 13:03

Tillyteacup · 25/06/2023 13:01

I hope she is locked up long enough that she is too old to have babies when released. Rest In Peace little one x

Meanwhile the male who got her pregnant, father of the baby, goes on to have a happy loving family.

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AllOfThemWitches · 25/06/2023 13:04

Imagine telling a stranger you're surprised they didn't diy their abortion, speculating on their mental state and then suggesting they need to 'step away.' Ah, good old mumsnet.

Tillyteacup · 25/06/2023 13:05

He didn’t murder and torture a baby. He shouldn’t have for her pregnant there is no excuse for that but it doesn’t mean he would murder any children he has. He absolutely should face consequences as she was underage though.

placemats · 25/06/2023 13:05

You suggested the DIY abortion above killing the child.

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placemats · 25/06/2023 13:07

Tillyteacup · 25/06/2023 13:05

He didn’t murder and torture a baby. He shouldn’t have for her pregnant there is no excuse for that but it doesn’t mean he would murder any children he has. He absolutely should face consequences as she was underage though.

He specifically said he didn't like condoms. He knew she could have had a pregnancy as a result. He goes on to meet women and have babies with them. Should he? Is he happy to impregnate a woman and not care about the result?

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pickledandpuzzled · 25/06/2023 13:08

I see a hell of a lot of privilege on this thread.
And nastiness.

When something awful happens, it isn't necessary to blame someone for it. It's not less awful if you understand the complexity around why it happened. It's not less awful if you can blame one person- or perhaps it is.

Perhaps pointing at the evil child who did this appalling thing makes everyone feel safer that it could never happen to them, in their family, next door to them.

False sense of security, imo.

It's like domestic violence those 'silly women who didn't see the red flags, didn't leave the first time he shouted, got drunk and shouted themselves sometimes'.

It won't happen to me or my daughter. I'm too clever, streetwise, sensible, careful...

AllOfThemWitches · 25/06/2023 13:09

placemats · 25/06/2023 13:05

You suggested the DIY abortion above killing the child.

In a situation where you're absolutely unable to have a termination and desperately don't want to be pregnant or have a child? And the choices are that or murder of a newborn?

placemats · 25/06/2023 13:11

He was the father of the baby and should have taken care of the mother of his child. He did not. Why didn't he do that?

He is just as culpable as she is and should be prosecuted too.

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AP5Diva · 25/06/2023 13:11

BMustard · 25/06/2023 12:52

With respect, many (most?) pregnant 15 year olds don't come from the best backgrounds or having loving and supportive families.

In fact, many come from abusive backgrounds, where they are terrified, including myself. Yet how many cases end up like this?

Family unhappy about teen pregnancy = infanticide? In the UK? In 2019?

Yes, not been very clear. Ive mentioned it because such a background increases the chances of psychosis.

It’s a factor because a bad home life increases the odds a girl will experience psychosis. Girls & women with backgrounds of childhood abuse fall into what is called a Clinical High Risk (CHR) category for psychosis in pregnancy or post partum.

“Adverse life events have repeatedly been implicated in the development of First Episode Psychosis (FEP)7 with 89% of FEP patients reporting one or more adversities compared to 37% of controls8. Specifically, childhood/adolescent sexual, physical, and emotional abuse, physical/emotional neglect, separation, and institutionalization were 4–17 times higher for the FEP group. Moreover, for each additional adversity, the risk of psychosis increased 2.5 times8. Similarly, CHR individuals were found to have experienced significantly more severe adverse events than controls, regardless of trauma subtype9. Specifically, CHR individuals were 5.5, 2.5, and 3.1 times as likely to report emotional abuse, physical abuse, and bullying victimization, respectively9.”

So for individuals who are not CHR, the stress of an unplanned pregnancy is far less likely to cause psychosis
“Therefore, an individual with a high bio-psychosocial vulnerability will only need to experience a low level of (internal or external) stress in order to develop psychosis; while in contrast, an individual with a low overall level of bio-psychosocial vulnerability will need to experience a high level of stress in order to manifest the illness.”

Please note this study isn’t limited to stress of pregnancy or psychosis in pregnant/post partum women. It is talking across the board, so the stress they mention can be any life event that causes stress.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41537-023-00362-z

Psychosocial stress, interpersonal sensitivity, and social withdrawal in clinical high risk for psychosis: a systematic review - Schizophrenia

Stress has repeatedly been implicated in the onset and exacerbation of positive symptoms of psychosis. Increasing interest is growing for the role of psychosocial stress in the development of psychosis symptoms in individuals at Clinical High Risk (CHR...

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41537-023-00362-z

AgathaSpencerGregson · 25/06/2023 13:12

AP5Diva · 25/06/2023 12:42

Well you certainly know how to take a discussion right into the gutter by slinging personal insults. You don’t have to agree with my opinion, but that doesn’t make it a ‘snit’ nor is it based on ‘preconceived ideas’- I’ve posted more than enough to show my opinion is evidence based.

You’ve posted groundless speculation because the outcome of the trial doesn’t suit your ideas. I don’t think that’s helpful and I’m not required to take it seriously.

AgathaSpencerGregson · 25/06/2023 13:14

AllOfThemWitches · 25/06/2023 13:04

Imagine telling a stranger you're surprised they didn't diy their abortion, speculating on their mental state and then suggesting they need to 'step away.' Ah, good old mumsnet.

Mate, you’re the one suggesting a 15 year old girl with no previous or subsequent history of violence didn’t seek abortion so she could have the chance to murder the baby. Yes, it is time for you to step away, because you’re posting mad shit.

placemats · 25/06/2023 13:14

Plus the father of the baby was sexually experienced because he said that using condoms is less of a sexual experience.

No regard for the outcome. Should be brought to justice as well.

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AllOfThemWitches · 25/06/2023 13:15

AgathaSpencerGregson · 25/06/2023 13:14

Mate, you’re the one suggesting a 15 year old girl with no previous or subsequent history of violence didn’t seek abortion so she could have the chance to murder the baby. Yes, it is time for you to step away, because you’re posting mad shit.

So, what's your suggestion?

AgathaSpencerGregson · 25/06/2023 13:19

AllOfThemWitches · 25/06/2023 13:15

So, what's your suggestion?

I don’t have one because I haven’t got the information. It isn’t compulsory to leap into every situation with fruitloop theories. Some of prefer to have a bit of data before we spout shite.

ScrollingLeaves · 25/06/2023 13:19

@AP5Diva sorry for the detail but I think you may have said you have suffered from psychosis. I was following one of the psychosis information links @Iwasafool posted and then read one linked within an article which is very interesting and counter intuitive about psychosis sometimes being caused by an auto-immune reaction of the body attacking the brain.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38220610

AllOfThemWitches · 25/06/2023 13:20

I can't believe it's considered 'mad' to suggest it could have been a premeditated murder. I mean, that is a thing.

lieselotte · 25/06/2023 13:20

placemats · 25/06/2023 13:14

Plus the father of the baby was sexually experienced because he said that using condoms is less of a sexual experience.

No regard for the outcome. Should be brought to justice as well.

Yes it's a very good point, and one that was also raised on the thread about maintenance - if a mother left her child at home while she went to work she'd be done for neglect but the father waltzes off into the sunset without paying childcare costs.

It's always the mother that carries the can in so many contexts and it has to stop.

ScrollingLeaves · 25/06/2023 13:20

Sorry for the derail not detail.

AllOfThemWitches · 25/06/2023 13:20

AgathaSpencerGregson · 25/06/2023 13:19

I don’t have one because I haven’t got the information. It isn’t compulsory to leap into every situation with fruitloop theories. Some of prefer to have a bit of data before we spout shite.

Again, there are several people here you might want to discuss that with.

AgathaSpencerGregson · 25/06/2023 13:21

AllOfThemWitches · 25/06/2023 13:20

I can't believe it's considered 'mad' to suggest it could have been a premeditated murder. I mean, that is a thing.

you went further than suggesting this was premeditated. You suggested she didn’t seek abortion so she could have the opportunity to murder the child.
A deeply sick suggestion. Glad to see you’re trying to walk that one back.

AgathaSpencerGregson · 25/06/2023 13:21

AllOfThemWitches · 25/06/2023 13:20

Again, there are several people here you might want to discuss that with.

Which I’m doing.

MumUndone · 25/06/2023 13:21

I can think of few things worse than giving birth, alone and in silence, at 15 years old, scared of what others would think if they found out. Even if she knew she was pregnant beforehand, she would have been out of her mind. I think it's dreadfully sad for all concerned but murder is not what this is. Utter madness and misogyny.

AgathaSpencerGregson · 25/06/2023 13:23

lieselotte · 25/06/2023 13:20

Yes it's a very good point, and one that was also raised on the thread about maintenance - if a mother left her child at home while she went to work she'd be done for neglect but the father waltzes off into the sunset without paying childcare costs.

It's always the mother that carries the can in so many contexts and it has to stop.

Yeah I think it’s just possible that it’s the mother carrying the can here because she’s the one who stamped on the infants head and choked him with cotton wool
Jesus Christ

BMustard · 25/06/2023 13:25

MumUndone · 25/06/2023 13:21

I can think of few things worse than giving birth, alone and in silence, at 15 years old, scared of what others would think if they found out. Even if she knew she was pregnant beforehand, she would have been out of her mind. I think it's dreadfully sad for all concerned but murder is not what this is. Utter madness and misogyny.

Anyone who agrees with you (about the girl's circumstances) up until we get to the bit where she kills the baby killing is a misogynist. Right, ok then.

Let's not even go there because all you're doing is making a mockery out of misogyny.

pickledandpuzzled · 25/06/2023 13:27

Can you not see the misogyny in ignoring all the circumstances- that uniquely apply to women- that contributed to the death of the poor baby?