'Trans Bathroom Manifesto' in London pub - are these doing the rounds?

[QuimReaper]

Anyone seen one of these elsewhere, or has this pub written it up specially?

I don’t think they really are scared of using the gents, I think it’s more that they think that people will see them going in and out and “know”. The silly thing is most people can tell who is a man and who is a woman whatever their dress/identity so no cover is being blown.

okshacky, you are rightly pointing out the 'othering' aspect.

I agree with you. Helleofabore, except

I still have not really seen statistics showing that males who are trans are not safe in the male toilets. It keeps being used as a reason, but it seems to be lacking in logic

This argument is used as a manipulative distraction technique that leverages the propensity of women and girls to "be kind" and empathetic and to solve men's problems to their own detriment.

What goes on (or doesn't) in the men's toilets is absolutely not a problem that women need to solve for men before being given their single-sex spaces back.

There is no amount of evidence of male violence that I could be shown that would suddenly make me think "oh, well if males are this violent, then actually I do want them to have unfettered access to women's single-sex spaces after all".

So if a trans person has had re-assignment surgery, ie penis when they used to have a vulva and vice versa, so would you then allow them into the space with the other people who have that body part, as you said above?

I agree Longines.

However, I am questioning the factual basis that they even thought we believe.

In fact, what I believe has happened is that some influential male people and groups allowed that falsehood to develop and to create fear in the people that they profess to be supporting.

This is just like groups such as Mermaids perpetuating the harmful myth that if someone doesn't affirm you they hate you and all trans people. Believe me, I have had that literally screamed at me while I have stood holding hands to allow women to speak at a rally. I even commented to the nearby policeman just how bizarrely wrong that mantraing was. Yet, these kids screaming it at me fully believed it.

There is a significant detachment from the real facts around 'acceptance'.

Allowing doesn’t come into it. It is about respecting other people.

Removing part of a person’s body will not change the sex of that person. We all know what we are, if you were born with a penis and you no longer have one through illness, injury or cosmetic surgery you belong in the men’s toilets and changing rooms. Have some respect for women and girls and allow us to have our own spaces, we’ll do you men and boys the same courtesy.

If you don’t want to use the men’s then campaign for mixed sex spaces alongside men’s and women’s. Many of us here, I’d guess most of us would support your campaign for your own space.

A male who has had their penis removed is a male who has had their penis removed. If they have been through any part of virilisation they are stronger and are a greater physical risk to any female. Even if they have not been though virilisation they have advantages. We already know this from seeing CAIS male people's development.

Why should any female accept a male who presents an increased physical risk to them in their single sex space?

And I am very happy to discuss advantages that some female people have over others. I will be very happy to link up all the research so far about this.

Also, male people have male physical cues that people recognise. It allows us to identify who is male and who is not. The prevalence of facial surgery is low. Even with facial surgical modifications, the skeleton does not lie and nor does gait.

Why should any female accept a male in their single sex space if they are likely to be distressed at detecting that they in the presence of a male?

It doesn't matter whether any male has their penis removed. It doesn't make them any more female. It doesn't give them any ethical right to be allowed into female single sex spaces and it never did. Once a male, always a male.

By the way, if a male loses their penis due to injury or disease, does that make them female? Yes? No? What are the differences between a male who has no penis due to injury or disease vs one who has elected to have it removed for cosmetic purposes? What exactly are the differences?

I think it’s more important to recognise that the intention is to use female toilets and the females in them to improve their disguise. Why should women lose their privacy, and add risk to perpetrate a lie? Why shouldn’t we instead stop encouraging by our complicity the hiding of trans people and instead accept them for the people they are? Why do we need to pretend TWAW? They aren’t, it doesn’t mean they don’t have needs and experience that are different from men who aren’t trans.

By the way, if a male loses their penis due to injury or disease, does that make them female? Yes? No? What are the differences between a male who has no penis due to injury or disease vs one who has elected to have it removed for cosmetic purposes? What exactly are the differences?

I really want to know the answer to this one. If a man loses his penis in an industrial accident, is he now a woman? If a woman has a double mastectomy becaise she has breast cancer, is she now a man? If the presence or absence of certain physical characteristics is how you decide whether someone is male or female, where do these people fit?

Oh, and you cannot create a penis, or a vulva. The parts that the very small number of trans people who have genital surgery have, are in no way the parts of the opposite sex. Thanks to the SRS thread of the kiwi farms, I have seen quite a lot of evidence of that fact 😱

Likewise.

No, a man that loses his penis is still a man and so on for any such scenario.
And no, women should not have to give up their sex spaces for men. Are men doing the equivalent?

This is in the ladies loo in a pub we went into for a meal. Had I seen this before eating I'd have walked out.
When I asked why there was a urinal in there I was told that some women prefer to straddle the loo.
I'm trying to believe this but not succeeding.

In the 60’s many pubs were pretty much men only, women would only go in if taken by a man and children were left outside and given a packet of crisps and a fizzy drink if they were lucky.

Perhaps the hospitality industry wants to go back to that and stop appealing to women and families. That seems to be where they are headed with the mixed sex toilets.

Remember for a short time when we had a culture of consent?

So is that at a height where you could hover over it to do a wee? Or is it at male urinating height? And is it in a cubicle?

The only time I'd likely see a female straddle the loo is on a hen night, and even then they'd look at a urinal and say someone was taking the piss.

@CorderBollie The Clarence in Stoke Newington.

Of course it would be Hackney.

Then yes, OP, totally normal for round there, unfortunately.

Women and girls have been raped by transwomen and transgirls in women's toilets (and that NHS ward), they've been attacked, they've been leered at and ogled, it's happened before, and if they keep being allowed in it'll happen again. But of course, women need to shut up and just move aside for the poor hurty feelz tranzwomen.

Those were the days.