TW selected for angling team leads to half the team quitting the squad.

[Justme56]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12181413/Half-England-ladies-angling-team-quit-trans-woman-selected-join-squad.html

Good on the women for taking a stand & voting with their feet.
Thanks to the Daily Mail for keeping all the TRAs destroying women's rights & sports in the spotlight.

Well done, and good luck to the women who quit.

The Times is also running the story
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5afcd060-086b-11ee-997e-7710367054a0?shareToken=64b5e7a9b0486522b8ab48cb78435b64

Dressage rider here. I’ve never felt that classes need to be split by sex, and I cannot ever recall it even being discussed. I’ve beaten plenty of men - I would argue that if you’re using your physical strength to ride a horse then you’re doing it wrong. Of course, physical strength might have a bearing in, say, polo, where it would affect hitting the ball but “pure” equestrianism? No, and I’m quite happy to compete on equal terms.

I would argue that if you’re using your physical strength to ride a horse then you’re doing it wrong.

Just to clarify on this, riding is physically bloody hard work for both sexes but if you are using your strength by pulling or kicking your horse - where men would have an advantage - then you’re doing it wrong.

All credit to those three anglers who have taken a stand. And shame on those who put them in the position of being faced with that decision.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2023/05/31/runner-chelsea-mitchell-who-lost-to-trans-athletes-this-is-about-fairness/amp/

Another law suit here! Unbelievable that this is actually happening.

I think we also need to be open about the realities of sex based participation in sport and the reasons why women and girls are not equally represented and the studies that show that participation increases when single sex training, participation and competition are provided on equal terms.

Rare sports where this is not the case.. ie dressage.. do not prove the point for all sports..

I'm full of admiration for the women who stood down from the women's angling team and also Chelsea Mitchell (who lost out on so many races), the frustration and injustice which prompted their decision must have been high. As with the women who refused to attend podium presentations, this is one way of letting your feelings be known and drawing publicity to what is happening. There is just a part of me which dreads nothing ever changing in the way of trans women being allowed to compete in the female category. If the practice is allowed to continue then sooner or later the female category will have no actual women in it. It is very sad, very scary, and feels like the tip of the iceberg in terms of male dominance in every aspect of life.

I don't think it proves the case for all sports either, but a PP had asked for riders' opinions on equestrian sports.

I know that different equestrian disciplines have different ratios of male/female riders at elite level (IMO dressage is slightly more women than men, eventing is about 50/50, show-jumping is more men) but even only slightly further down the scale you'll find that most riders are female. If there are 10 horses in the warmup ring with me, probably only one or two are ridden by men and I compete at a reasonably high level. Training, participation and competition absolutely are provided on equal terms as far as I've ever seen.

As far as non-equine sport goes, if you take physical ability out of it (and I'm not sure you can, given the advantages it conveys) I guess we're only left with societal factors as to why women and girls aren't equally represented: less likely to get sponsorship, girls being put off sports at school, attitudes such as it being "undesirable" for women to be fit/muscled (I have had comments from a family member about going to the gym along the lines of "Don't build up too much muscle, it doesn't look good") women being lumbered with the majority of housework/child care so unable to train/compete etc?

Fellow rider and although I love that women compete on equal terms with men I think that the lack of sex segregation in equestrian sports and the number of very talented women at the top of Eventing and Dressage does female elite riders a huge disservice.

Most of the time they are successful despite the challenges of their sex.

Pregnancy and maternity leave is much more of a consideration in equestrian sport due to the longevity of equestrian sporting careers. In most mainstream sports women can delay pregnancy until their prime competitive years are behind them, not so in a sport where Olympic gold medalists can be in their 60s.

Jonelle Price has spoken about how much more challenging it is for her to secure rides than her husband despite her being an incredibly talented and successful rider (who is still at the top despite two pregnancies and being a Mum to two pre-schoolers).

Several have spoken about the challenges of returning to the sport following child birth. Several have also spoken about trying to schedule pregnancy around off season, championships and Olympic cycles.

Zara Tindall was given a roasting in the press for riding a dressage test while pregnant.

There has been a legal challenge in dressage regarding the calculation of world ranking points and maternity leave.

@JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon I don't disagree with you that those issues affect women but I'm not sure that sex segregation would help - what would be to stop the same issues arising between women who do and women who don't have children? I'd say it's more attitudes that need to change, especially when it comes to women being the default care-giver. However, we can't get away from the fact that sporting/physical peaks and fertility windows are often the same period of time in a woman's life - it's a balance that has to be struck in many sports.

I don't have children - by choice - but I don't want to be siphoned off into a women's class on the basis of my reproductive biology (whether or not I'm using it!) because that will almost certainly risk a situation where men's sport is seen as a bigger deal than the women's, like tennis, football and so many other sports where women have struggled to be taken as seriously as the men. There is then the additional dimension that owners will want their top horses ridden by men because that's where the greater glory is, which would be understandable because better results = higher income from later breeding. Then women are struggling for good horses to ride unless they produce them themselves and not everyone has the resources to do that.

I agree that calculation of world rankings should take into account maternity leave.

I think you have misunderstood me, I am not advocating in favour of splitting equestrian sport by sex. Absolutely not.

I am just saying that the fact that it is mixed sex does not mean that women compete on an equal playing field.

There are still a huge number of challenges. The fact that women face these issues in mixed sex sport is further evidence that allowing trans women to compete in women's sport, even ones where physical size/strength is not a major factor will disadvantage women.

I think you have misunderstood me, I am not advocating in favour of splitting equestrian sport by sex. Absolutely not.

Apologies! :)

No worries!

I don't want to mean about people who transition but if you have gone through puberty as male, you will always be stronger. Make a differnt league please.

I'd seen another article about the women's angling team and it's cuckoo and I thought that's why this thread had popped up again.

But it seems just a coincidence. Anyway here's the article

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12552627/England-ladies-angling-team-refuse-compete-world-championships-trans-woman.html

Seems the rules are being reconsidered but the status quo will rule until then. And obviously there's no guarantee they will come down on the side of common sense and fairness.

Fwiw @Sarahzb you're not being mean , except in the sense of average. Knowing male puberty gives an advantage is something that any average person recognises, unless they're full of genderwoo or scared of the genderwoo brigade.

So heartening to see this!

I have no interest whatsoever in the whole 'can we prove it's technically unfair for a man with a problem to use women and their resources as a therapy resource/ vehicle for his own agenda' stuff.

Why is there a separate women's category in the first place?

Why is there such enormous difficulty in managing to respect women enough to think that their sports shouldn't be seen as a resource for making sad men feel better? And that women's lives shouldn't revolve around being commandeered to make men's lives nicer for them rather than selfishly wanting lives and careers of their own?

I want to wear these clothes - great
I am putting on makeup - good for you
I use this name - ok
I want to radically cosmetically alter my body - you do you
I want to destroy women's sports - no.

sounds like the women's angling team have unusual adherrance to principles and clarity of thought:

Although Becky Lee would be an asset to my team, it's unfair on everyone else. And if you win in a situation like that, you can't enjoy the victory, because it feels like you've cheated

yep

I couldn’t agree more.

Separate female categories exist in other areas for reasons not related to physical strength. And if it’s a women’s category then it needs to be female only.

That this needs saying is utterly ridiculous.

I think the most recent article has come up because it’s a different competition. It was interesting about the sharing room thing - the TW’s wife would be jealous. What’s that all about? Surely non of them should be sharing with a TW because they are male!

Much like women's chess, the physical advantages of men (probably) isn't the issue, it is the fact that if you had mixed sex teams hardly any women would compete because it would be seen as a male interest. And male interest would probably outnumber female by 100 to 1.

Having female only teams tells girls and women that this interest is for you, you can be with like minded girls and women. Having a male there defeats the point.

We've seen this with competitive video gaming, where women teams just became populated with long-haired men.

Males have a big physical advantage in sea angling. It's a physical sport where strength and height make a difference.

When I complained about males self-IDing into the team contact sport I played (and pointed out who hard women have had to work to even be allowed to play that sport) I was told by the organiser that we owed it to transwomen to give them the same chances. Uh...they've already had those chances and more, growing up male.

Not to mention that it's well known, well evidenced fact that in mixed sex situations men dominate and women do not respond in the same way as they do in a single sex situation. There's a few different groups I regularly attend and sometimes they are women only, and sometimes a few men attend, usually friends or partners of the women members. When it's women only, a lot of the women talk, offer ideas, state opinions, discuss with each other. When men are present, even if only one or two men in the group, they dominate the floor, they interact directly with the presenter if there is one, they ask most of the questions, and the women who would usually talk? Say very little and some don't participate at all. These are nice, normal men.

Women want times and spaces that are about them, their interests, their bodies, their competition, their own excellence. We need to stop worrying about is there sufficient hard peer reviewed evidence to dare to think about saying 'no' to a man and think instead about why as a society we don't see women as equally human to men and entitled to the same respect and autonomy. Why we seriously still view women as resources with an inbuilt birthright to put the wishes and needs of men ahead of themselves.

And why we're seeing women in this awful way while pretending to believe that some men turn into women. But not real women: not a the kind of women that come without needs or feelings, and have a duty to be a codependent doormat.