A bit shaken- friends into gender ideology

[mybodyisme]

So, long time lurker, used to participate a bit but nowhere near as informed as others so ended up mainly lurking.

Anyway, learned a lot. I am neurodiverse so have done a lot of hyperfocus study of the subject so know a lot more than the man on the street.

Anyway, feel need a bit of support and unpicking because each time I try to bring up how this ideology isn't something I am comfortable supporting, I've had some odd reactions.

Two friends I know separately, both who have slightly different values when it comes to gender and feminism. (One very traditional won't dress a girl in blue incase, shudder, misgendered; one clothes should be clothes advocate) have both left me feeling a bit shaken when discussing this.

Both have implied that if their child was born in the wrong body (their words) then they would support a transition. When I've tried to bring up how I don't agree with this approach because it encourages gender stereotypes, creates lifelong medical patients, serious medical consequences, I've not even been given a chance to explain properly before I get given the 'bigot, transphobia' treatment.

I find it incredibly frustrating because although I know more about it than a lot of people, I find it difficult to articulate verbally. Because I am neurodiverse I find it even more to put across my point when someone gets accusatory as my fight or flight response is activated.

I was also sort of hoping with all the sunlight at the moment that this response would happen less and less as people started to question it. I mean, it's not like I bring it up all the time, but I refuse to be complicit with the fiction so when it comes up I do say what I think.

Anyway, just hoping for some wise words on how to keep my cool when this happens as it's really shaken me.

Also, has made me question what my children will be told in future because of people commonly still think this my very vulnerable children are at risk. No idea how to navigate this so my children come out intact and mentally healthy.

And yes, yes one liners I'll be sure to educate myself. Please start with telling me how you can be born in the wrong body.

Why not ask your friends not to call you names and insult you?

Deal with their behaviour not their opinions?

Your friends might believe in wrong bodies but they don't need to insult you if you don't. Ask them not to.

Think you need some new friends (i.e. not batshit mentalists)

To be clear, they aren't calling me a bigot, they are implying it with their heat, way they argue that it's the same as a gay child etc.

Again, it's difficult to explain as I'm neurodiverse do hugely sensitive to tone and facial expressions, words chosen etc.

They are normal in other ways.
They are like most of the public. I'll informed, think it's the same as gay rights movement, progressive etc.

ask them to provide proof that anyone, anywhere, anytime has ever changed sex. (hint-zero-count them). If you dont accept this then you are prey to all the attendant bollocks that we are familiar with.

This must be the circles you move in OP. I’ve found the opposite. Almost every person I’ve tentatively revealed my GC position to in real life has turned out to think the same as me. There’s a coy little dance where you tiptoe around the subject because neither person wants to be declared a bigot, then it all comes out and we feel relieved.

I only know one person who seems to be on the other side, and she’s American so it’s all tied up in their complicated politics. She also has a lot on her plate at the moment and probably only has a superficial knowledge of the issues. She doesn’t know I’m GC, I just avoid the subject.

The fact is, gender ideology just doesn’t bear the scrutiny of reality.

That's what's so difficult I think. When you've read and seen and thought about it so much, and in so much depth, it creates a huge and seemingly impossible divide to bridge.

I think that can be part of the struggle to articulate.

I totally relate OP!

I think the one today shocked me because I thought she was sensible and GC. I have other friends and relatives who either think the same as me or will listen and acknowledge if it comes up.

Honestly, I tried to ask how one can 'be born in the wrong body' and was very clear you can't change sex. Friend just lamented the surgery should be better. I found it so bizarre I must admit I don't think I was remotely coherent.

It just surprised me it took me by surprise. Also surprised people who know less about it than me (obviously not aware of mermaid no longer spouting born in wrong body wrong for example) could be so forceful in their opinions.

But yeah, mostly just shaken by it because I hate confrontation.

It's really hard to keep cool in this kind of situation! I found myself shaking the first time this came up in conversation with someone who had swallowed the ideology. Remember that you can't change someone's mind, you can only make them begin to ask questions. I'm saying this knowing it's easier said than done, but I'd practise a few responses along the lines of 'you think children can be born in the wrong body?!' in a slightly incredulous tone. Then say nothing more - and actually refuse to say anything more even if they ask! Just give an enigmatic smile!

Thing is, she definitely thinks people can be born in the wrong body.

I also mentioned I find that phrase and attitude difficult because my child has a disability, but that didn't seem to register.

I guess problem is I do like my friends in other ways, but I can't go along with this damaging philosophy and kinda hoped the recent developments would mean the misinformed outbursts would quiet down and people would start to look more closely.

When the whole jkr thing happened I saw she was told to educate herself. So I did too. And here I am.

Oh my lovely and intelligent SIL asked me if I put my pronouns after my name at work. I explained no. She was properly shocked and said she thought I was a liberal thinker. 😁
I gave a pretty reasoned and succinct argument about my GC thinking and she couldn't talk about it anymore. We agreed to disagree..just hope it laid a seed of doubt

I also find it really difficult when people blithely assert they'd support surgery.

My child has a disability and has had surgery to help. Each time it was agonising knowing what to choose and whether the risk was worth it. And this is so my child could actually function in the world and seriously help quality of life. I find it horrific that parents can just say how they'd allow their child unnecessary surgery just like that.

I mean, talking about lopping off your toddlers future breasts sounds so horrific to me I find it difficult to reconcile the idea with my 'good mum' friends.

It’s not your job to educate people, and what they do with their kids is their own problem. You won’t change their minds, you’re just making yourself feel stressed and getting called nasty names. If you don’t drop the subject you’ll end up losing your friends. Just let them believe whatever they want and change the subject.

that it's the same as a gay child etc
Tell them that it is them who are effectively non- accepting of a possibly gay child, or non-conforming child.

Tell them how it is in Iran and and among some ultra traditional religious people that chemical and surgical conversion is used on gay children to hide their true selves.

I suppose my worry is that they'll steep my children in gender ideology. They're vulnerable so I won't expose them to it.
Which is why I can't stay silent.

It's not you it's them. It doesn't matter how articulate you are. It's a cult that people don't even realise they've been indoctrinated into. If they opened their ears for 2 minutes they would be horrified.

I would focus on the homophobic element of transitioning children. We know that most gender non conforming children grow up to be gay, if left alone. So why are we trying to tell gay kids that their bodies are wrong? Isn’t that very homophobic?

Yeah, I guess my main problem is the wayy neurodiversity works when I am passionate about something.

I'm ok at getting my point across in writing, so online can plod on and address points rationally. Also, unless someone is obviously aggressive I can deal with a short time.

In real life that translates into my brain panicking and going off on tangents without really explaining anything. It's very frustrating because I do know my stuff and should have easily pulled apart her arguments.

Honestly, what a train wreck.

Why would your friends have more influence on your child than you do? Educate your child and let other people get on with believing whatever they like. You won’t change their minds, you’re just stirring up trouble.

Well because I have seen it in action as have a friend whose child is considering surgery and her parents are not supporters of the ideology.

Her children are friends with my children. Etc. It's not hard to see why i would find it concerning.

Honestly I would just learn to be more relaxed about it.

A politician or medical professional may be under a duty to question, stand up to, extremist gender ideology.

But I don't see that you have to try to debate your friends on it, when people differ in their ability to rationally consider these things. If you want to stand against it, there are probably better ways, especially if you have already discovered that your friends don't have the most open of minds.

I'm surprised by those saying no need for OP to worry about her children, they will listen to her first. As we know from many threads on FWR the influnece of the trans agenda is everywhere.

Anyway, hello OP, sorry for how you are feeling. It can be really disheartening when someone you get along with, like and enjoy spending time together turns out to have views that you just cant share.

If they are friends, and know about you being neurodiverse, is is possible to say to them you are finding their failure to listen to you very upsetting and challenging. So could they at least take the time to listen to you, and answers the points you make with more than is surgery good enough as though there is only one direction to take.

If you are happier expressing yourself in writing, maybe say you want to write it down, or for instance ask them to look at a video about for instance de-transitioners, or read an article so that you can then discuss it together.

But I'm afraid you might also have to accept that however much you like them they maybe just dont think about things in depth, and are just going along with the crowd.

I can see this isn't a good solution if they are people you just socialise with ocassionally, but if the know you even a little bit, hopefully they would take on that you are feeling distressed by their failure to listen to you.

I think the fundamental error TWAW people are making with regard to children is assuming that every child who questions their gender (or appears non conforming) would grow up to be trans.

If you believe that then treating them as the opposite sex and helping them access medical transition asap seems to be the accepting and compassionate route.

But once you know that it isn't true. That left alone (I e. not affirmed etc) most would not be trans adults. Then treating them as if they are the opposite sex cannot be the right approach.

You can't unsee it.

Then you realise that we are confusing children and causing them to be self conscious about their gender expression and ruminate upon it. Rather than just live their lives.

Then add in for the very small percentage that would have become trans adults that even for them, transitioning medically as children is risky with poorer health outcomes, lack options with regards to fertility etc.

I understand your frustration with the "born in the wrong body" thing, it doesn't make sense if you think about it.

It functions as a thought terminating phrase like trans women are women. I don't think they are thinking about what they mean by it at all.