A bit shaken- friends into gender ideology

[mybodyisme]

So, long time lurker, used to participate a bit but nowhere near as informed as others so ended up mainly lurking.

Anyway, learned a lot. I am neurodiverse so have done a lot of hyperfocus study of the subject so know a lot more than the man on the street.

Anyway, feel need a bit of support and unpicking because each time I try to bring up how this ideology isn't something I am comfortable supporting, I've had some odd reactions.

Two friends I know separately, both who have slightly different values when it comes to gender and feminism. (One very traditional won't dress a girl in blue incase, shudder, misgendered; one clothes should be clothes advocate) have both left me feeling a bit shaken when discussing this.

Both have implied that if their child was born in the wrong body (their words) then they would support a transition. When I've tried to bring up how I don't agree with this approach because it encourages gender stereotypes, creates lifelong medical patients, serious medical consequences, I've not even been given a chance to explain properly before I get given the 'bigot, transphobia' treatment.

I find it incredibly frustrating because although I know more about it than a lot of people, I find it difficult to articulate verbally. Because I am neurodiverse I find it even more to put across my point when someone gets accusatory as my fight or flight response is activated.

I was also sort of hoping with all the sunlight at the moment that this response would happen less and less as people started to question it. I mean, it's not like I bring it up all the time, but I refuse to be complicit with the fiction so when it comes up I do say what I think.

Anyway, just hoping for some wise words on how to keep my cool when this happens as it's really shaken me.

Also, has made me question what my children will be told in future because of people commonly still think this my very vulnerable children are at risk. No idea how to navigate this so my children come out intact and mentally healthy.

And yes, yes one liners I'll be sure to educate myself. Please start with telling me how you can be born in the wrong body.

You see, this is what confounds me. How can the surgery "be better?"

It's like saying that surgeons should somehow be able to recreate an entirely new organ out of bits they've harvested from other parts of your body and sewn together, and not only that, that they should be able to plumb it all in so that it works exactly like it does in a member of the opposite sex.

What do these people expect that medical science should be able to do? Are they thinking that you should be able to somehow grow your own penis through the use of opposite sex stem cells and radical genetic editing?

Do they think a man should be able to take a pill and somehow grow a vagina and a uterus? How? Where? With what?

It's like thinking a surgeon could just stitch an arm onto your back and it would somehow be fully viable.

I sympathise OP, I can set my thoughts out quite coherently in writing but I'm quite socially anxious and not good at expressing myself verbally, especially in a confrontational situation. I think some of the advice here about saying less is good, just maybe musing on some questions rather than directly trying to refute their points. 'I wonder how we can tell which of the kids who question their gender will turn out to be trans adults?, hmm, who knows?' and leave it at that. The seed may have been planted!

I also think that just stating your position goes a long way, there will come a point when your friends will have a niggling doubt and they'll remember that you, a nice friend and reasonable person, also has doubts and that will help them up and over the top.

Tell them they're both being very ableist as what the hell are they going to do if their child is born disabled?

Claim they're in the wrong body and order a refund? 😡

They're also both being sexist as sex is determined from conception.

I've come to realise that many people don't engage their brains on more than the most superficial of levels.

They believe what they're told, they don't question or think things through.

The trans issue looks superficially like acceptance of gay rights, it's good to be progressive, everyone should be kind and accepting, etc. They aren't engaging with the very challenging nature of this issue. They want to be seen as nice people and they think blind acceptance is the way to do that. 🤷‍♀️

In time, they'll realise it's not as simple as that. But it may not be you that helps them come to that conclusion.

Yes, as my child has a disability I tried to explain this but got shut down.

I got told I was citing cosmetic changes.
Then it's not just stereotypes.
Then it's wrong body.

Honest it was bizarre. I do think she genuinely thinks you can change sex though.

Do you want to continue this friendship? If so keep off the topic.

If you are genuinely concerned about someone being a malign influence on your children then step away from them.

When I start prodding others for their views they can come up with weird tangential stuff that throws me off course.

If your friend is still working things out then a big argument risks hardening her views. But if she's already decided that she is #teambonkerstrans then she is probably a lost cause. It's only the undecideds who are available for persuasion. And even then it might not be a sudden revelation.

Sorry I read more of th thread and saw you had said this - it's despicable.

I'd be pointing out that the majority of "gender confused kids" decide they're gay and others tend to come from rigidly sexist backgrounds or are autistic. Because autistic children are sometimes less interested in their peers, prefer certain types of clothing irrespective of their peers (often for sensory reasons) and/ or can find nuance in labels and stereotypes challenging to decipher. (I've actually taught more rigidly sexist autistic children then trans.)

Then point out that puberty blockers block any potential desire as more eloquently and tragically described by this woman: twitter.com/laurengnc_butch/status/1664544128103743491?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

As well as catastrophically destroying natural childhood development of bones and organs, including the endocrine system. Cross sex hormones also do this as well as damaging the heart and increasing risks of certain diseases.

That risk of suicide during PBs for girls is higher, and risk longer term for transitioning is higher.

It's also suggest they read some Piaget. And vgotsky. twitter.com/prof_curiosity1/status/1521440115167723520?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

Also point out that there's a man in Newcastle suing the local nhs for road railing him to transition and he horrifically regrets it and is now disabled by it. If adults don't get it right how can we be sure of the children??

Mermaids were pressured into taking down the ‘born in the wrong body’ mantra as most trans people do not get gender confirming surgeries, or just have some of the hormones or surgery options.
Maybe ask your friends if they think that men who transition late in life and do not have surgery (90%) should do to be considered trans and if they do not then why should teenagers have to?
What if they encouraged surgery for their child and the child decided later to de-transition, would they feel comfortable with that.

You need to keep it short and initially keep your feelings out of it. Mentioning you are offended can put people on the defence.

I start with stats/facts.
"Did you know the long term effects of puberty blockers and cross sex hormones is osteoporosis in their 30s, infitility and loss of sexual pleasure?
The stats say about 50% of trans kids are autistic. Most have other mental health issues that are not being treated, personally I feel addressing comorbidities may be more beneficial to the child"

Or if the conversation is men in women's spaces I reference cases like women being raped in prison or hospital wards.

Dont even say TW are not women to start with. It's believed to be transphobic so saying it shuts people down to listening. Just mentioning a couple things you know they as an individual care about be that children or homosexuality rape. Then let them react and or question. If saying a couple facts about what is essentially child abuse (don't use that phrase initially) if that upsets them there is no point trying to engage they won't listen.

That's what worked for me personally. I had a few people literally say they don't want to discuss it it's all so silly. Then I said did you know 50% trans kids are autistic, many would just grow up to be gay and the long term effects of the drugs they are given leaves them lifelong medical patients they are the same drugs they give to chemically castrate pedophiles. The response each time has been "really that can't be true?!" Then I go into more depth tell them to come read Mumsnet and drop it.

I'm ND too. It's super hard to not go into too much detail! But it honestly puts people off to start with

You could also blithely say it's not evidenced science, all "treatments" for minors are completely off licence and do not have any actual

Being gay or lesbian is not suggesting someone was born in the wrong body; it is simply a word to describe someone's sexual and/or romantic orientation.
Being gay or lesbian is not to deny the reality of biological sex.

'Being trans' is simply a way to frame what has traditionally been seen as a mental health issue - in being unable to accept/feel at home in one's body or biological sex. This needn't stop someone from presenting any way they like, but what they cannot do is change sex.

Sex is real. It under-pins sexual attraction, and it is also of great significance in many types of situation, especially for women and girls ( females) who have additional rights and protections on account of it.

Trans rights are not women's rights.

A lot of people have just accepted being told there is an equivalence between being 'trans' and being gay. They have given it no further thought and have not exercised any critical thinking at all.

It has become subsumed, as an issue, into the general rag tag collection of Left-Liberal civil rights with its focus on freedom and equality. -whereby equality basically means everyone is supposed to be the same and have the same needs and requirements.

Being 'trans' has been de-medicalised as an issue in a way that would have been alien to the earliest transsexuals. -who always knew it was a psychological issue. People are now expected to believe in spirits trapped in the 'wrong body' - even though we are also told that suffering from dysphoria is not even a pre-condition for being trans.

None of it is logical or consistent - and furthermore it is a totalitarian movement which expects total compliance from the rest of society under pain of censure or through the use of emotional blackmail.

I would advise just steering clear of the topic in future. It's not and doesn't need to be your job. The truth will out, in time.

Oh that does sound hard and frustrating. I can really see how the experience of needing to choose surgery for your child really gives you an insight that other parents don't have into the realities of medical procedures on children. I think some people think that it's like a magic wand - or that you literally "change sex", rather than having a crudely cosmetic, non-functional simulacrum of a body part grafted on or carved out of your flesh.

I think in your place I would take a line that decisions about surgeries and hormones should be made by the individual themselves when they are adults and can weigh for themselves the long term consequences of the various options. And that the role of parents is to keep all the options available, rather than hustling their child into social and medical "transition" as soon as possible.

Beautifully put, InvisibleDragon · Today 11:16
I’d add that I’d hope the child could have access to psychological support incase of any co-morbidities related to their distress, in case they had previously suffered a traumatic experience, were autistic, were gay but felt they should not be, or had any other difficulties.

I've got literally no idea why my post was deleted. I just outlined what she thinks?!
Her words, not mine!

I’m sorry your post was deleted mybodyisme. Can someone please tell mumsnet that women are sick of being censored for telling the truth
Nearly 110 million views for ‘what is a woman’ film on Twitter. Here is the you tube link for the trailer.

Link to what is a woman trailer. I have watched it and agree with Elon Musk that ALL PARENTS SHOULD WATCH THIS.

mybodyisme · Today 11:33
I've got literally no idea why my post was deleted. I just outlined what she thinks?!
Her words, not mine!
If you ask Mumsnet they’ll tell you.

@mybodyisme
"Anyway, just hoping for some wise words on how to keep my cool when this happens as it's really shaken me."

There's a world of difference between being amazing at arguing and keeping your cool. Some people tend to think if they're not the first they've lost. But keeping your cool is all that is necessary to win a lot of the time. My golden rule to keep in mind during any debate is: "Don't be the one who looks like a screaming tomato." This is all you need to achieve, don't cripple yourself with more.

A few simple guides:

1. Breathe. The body and the mind are linked. When we feel tense, we adopt a tense posture. When we relax we shift out of it. What not everybody realises is that it's like a lever with two ends. If you start to adopt physical postures, faster breathing, etc., mentally move yourself back. Make yourself breathe slowly and deeply. Make yourself lower your shoulders. It will stop yourself from running away into stress and panic reactions. "Breathe yourself calm." Keep doing this throughout the argument.
2. Because of how you think you will tend towards the binary, meaning if something is said that you disagree with; or your argument is misrepresented - you have a tendency to react in an extreme way to it. Think about a boxer, think how many little blows he takes while he looks for an opening to land a real blow. If the boxer reacted to every little blow like he'd just been defeated, he would be. Instead, he says: "eh, and continues to fight". So this is the second key thing: "You haven't lost because of one point".
3. Think about what is actually going on. Many, maybe most, of these arguments aren't really about the facts. They're about "this person is saying the socially approved thing" or not. Or often "I don't want to lose to this person." Given how you have described yourself, and that you are likely intellectually honest, there's a good chance that you miss for some people the argument isn't about what you're actually arguing about, but societal control or social dominance over you. Your body knows this because it's reacting with a threat response. But consciously you're likely thinking only in terms of the argument's merits and intellectual consistency". An awareness of what is actually going on can be a great asset. For a start, in a society where we can seldom resort to force and on topics that focused around a specific action, it is very hard to get someone to change their position on something. Because they don't need to and they have a motivation not to. But lets say there are other people witnessing this argument. Now you can say to yourself your goal isn't to make the other person change their mind (very hard) but to show their arguments are flawed to those watching (achievable, worthwhile). If you think what is going on is they are trying to socially police you, purging you of your unacceptable opinions or make you hide them, look for ways in which their own arguments lead to socially unacceptable outcomes. It strikes at their motivation. It may not be intuitive but the underlying technique at work here is: "Maintain perspective". Try to see the argument from the outside as a dynamic between two or more people and this will help you remember that you're not alone and it's just an isolated conversation that is taking place over and over between lots of other people right now. Normalising it will help you feel less like you personally are under threat. You're part of a many, even if the many are just "off camera" right now you can picture them there.

So that's three applicable techniques you can just keep in mind as you find yourself in this situation. None of them take more than a brief moment of introspection and you can keep them in mind through the conversation:

• Breathe.
• Don't decide you've lost because of small losses.
• Maintain Perspective.

I hope this helps in some small way. Stay calm, stay reasonable, stay in control. And if you keep that up long enough, then the other person becomes the screaming tomato. On the other side of that, sometimes, is them changing their mind.

Brilliant post @OldGardinia

I’ve just had a post deleted too… no idea why!! C’mon mumsnet you can do better than censoring women!!!

Seems my post was deleted for referencing mountains and the consequences of surgery.

This is why I mainly work, I can't keep up with the constantly changing and inconsistent rules.