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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Disneyland greeter

183 replies

Neverplayleapfrogwithmrpipes · 31/05/2023 07:59

https://twitter.com/jonesville/status/1663381709667303425?s=46&t=mjCevLYB8rsDn2VcwfsB7w

This popped up on my Twitter regarding a Disney greeter called Nick in a dress.

https://twitter.com/jonesville/status/1663381709667303425?s=46&t=mjCevLYB8rsDn2VcwfsB7w

OP posts:
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5
MalagaNights · 01/06/2023 08:59

I would feel some discomfort about a man who worked in a shop exclusively for little girls clothes.

I feel even more discomfort about a man who dresses as a little girl working in a little girls clothes shop.

I really think we've lost our minds in an attempt to be non judgemental. Our feelings of discomfort and something being wrong are based on something. It's not all just 'prejudice' and 'social conditioning'.

Sometimes things feel wrong because they are wrong.

(Btw I do have a male hairdresser but I'm a grown women who has made a decision I'm comfortable with this particular man. Very different.)

BodegaSushi · 01/06/2023 10:13

AnalogueFondness · 01/06/2023 08:07

I have feel intuitively averse to male manicurists and have felt put out when I have been given one I haven’t expected. I realise now I really hate the experience of a male stranger touching my hands and feet for so long, so I haven’t got it done for ages now. In fact now you mention it, I am going to ask if they are male or female in future and go somewhere else if I have a bloke.

I really don’t like male hairdressers either - I have only had a couple, but I feel more comfortable talking to a woman about what I am trying to achieve.

These are intimate experiences- where you are being looked at closely, touched, asked how you feel. Doing this with a stranger is bad enough, let alone someone of the opposite sex.

I really think this is overthinking.

I’ve never regarded either experience as ‘intimate’ Confused

The nail salon I go to is run by a Vietnamese couple, I’ve had both husband and wife do my nails (SNS so it’s dipping into powder, no ‘intimate’ hand holding there, maybe other manicures are?)

The man actually is more skilled and my nails last longer than when his wife does it, but that’s beside the point. The experience is no different no matter who does it.

AnalogueFondness · 01/06/2023 10:14

BodegaSushi · 01/06/2023 10:13

I really think this is overthinking.

I’ve never regarded either experience as ‘intimate’ Confused

The nail salon I go to is run by a Vietnamese couple, I’ve had both husband and wife do my nails (SNS so it’s dipping into powder, no ‘intimate’ hand holding there, maybe other manicures are?)

The man actually is more skilled and my nails last longer than when his wife does it, but that’s beside the point. The experience is no different no matter who does it.

Your experience is different from mine.

AnalogueFondness · 01/06/2023 10:19

AnalogueFondness · 01/06/2023 10:14

Your experience is different from mine.

In fact. I got a massive infection in my finger after one bloke did it and nail fungi in my toe after another- there’s something off about it. Perhaps the fact that they are a married couple in your experience makes a difference.

Also, I do have different boundaries to other women anyway because I always insist on female doctors- some women are even cool with male gynaecologists. I don’t get that at all.

Inamuddle36 · 01/06/2023 11:40

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BodegaSushi · 01/06/2023 11:42

AnalogueFondness · 01/06/2023 10:19

In fact. I got a massive infection in my finger after one bloke did it and nail fungi in my toe after another- there’s something off about it. Perhaps the fact that they are a married couple in your experience makes a difference.

Also, I do have different boundaries to other women anyway because I always insist on female doctors- some women are even cool with male gynaecologists. I don’t get that at all.

Fair enough we all have different experiences, but I don’t think that an opinion that men don’t belong in certain work (and by extension only women belong in certain work) should be taken as a general view on how society should work.

oh and my grandfather was a gynaecologist and delivered me and my brothers, so we definitely won’t see eye-to-eye there either 😂

GarethSouthgatesWaistcoat · 01/06/2023 11:59

I don't really know how to articulate this.

To me it seems more about the employee's experience rather than the paying customers'. As a child I wouldn't have been comfortable with a man in a dress, sporting facial hair and wearing make up (and/or a wig). I didn't like pantomime dames either. I don't know why, maybe I was a prejudiced child? I came from a very liberal home and understood gay acceptance from an early age (as opposed to classmates in the mid 80s, you can imagine the taunts).
The man in the video would've triggered an uneasiness, probably connected to stranger danger and so on (though we were never specifically taught to fear men in dresses/wearing make up). Honestly from an early age I think we connected it to being fetishy, especially when sported by a bog-standard bloke from your area (who didn't remotely pass as female) as opposed to some refined theatrical performer or pop star.
I'm also on the autistic spectrum so maybe that has something to do with processing it. I still don't feel 100% at ease around men in female costume to this day even though my brain is reassuring me.

I'm conflicted as at the end of the day it is only a costume or a uniform. Are there any other examples of male employees dressing as female characters in the Disney parks? Other than the costumes with a giant head like Minnie Mouse etc 😁 I guess female employees could dress as male characters (I'm thinking along the lines of Robin Hood). On the other hand I can imagine guests being confused and disappointed if one of the main 'macho' male characters, a Disney prince/superhero/villain with no cartoon 'head' to conceal the person's face was worn by a woman. People go to have their photos taken and immerse themselves in the experience, it's probably not the same if the character doesn't reflect the canon.

Dress however you want in your personal life but it seems like the employee has deliberately set out to be subversive and stand out, revelling in the attention. Also being connected to the (predominantly) little girls' dress up boutique, not wandering around the park in a general role or in a parade. They'd have had to push for this and I doubt their employers were keen in the first instance but relented due to fear of TRAs and repercussions across social media for not being sufficiently liberal (I'm liberal myself though not far left). Pure speculation of course but generally you go to work and your wear the accepted uniform. You don't start badgering to wear your preference unless it concerns adjustments for disability, religious or plus size requirements.

The costumes are based on Disney princesses (?). Disney princesses don't typically have male facial hair, gaudy make up and adult male physique. This person knows it's not really de rigeur and that many customers (perhaps immediate colleagues too) may feel uncomfortable about that. Why does this have to be normalized (because of this individual's demands) and children's and parents' boundaries broken down? Why does this individual want to elevate their wants and needs while at work? Disney have already tried to promote gender and sexuality themes in some of their more recent output and it hasn't been well received since it's aimed at children. I'm not just talking about conservatives either - parents in the centre politically aren't necessarily keen either.

I don't think it's the same as dads and male relatives playing fancy dress with kids they're related to. You don't typically see men walking around in society wearing elaborate dresses, facial hair and make up during the day (unless they're on their way to DQST or a Pride parade 🤭). You wouldn't necessarily trust the intentions if such a person approached your small child in the street for a chat. They're a stranger after all and dressed subversively. I guess this comes back to societal norms and the potential for it being AGP rather than innocent.

LonginesPrime · 01/06/2023 12:02

IME I've not noticed any correlation between the skill level of a manicurist and their biological sex - I've had great ones from both sexes and appalling ones from both sexes. Ditto re haircuts.

But it makes sense that some women are going to feel a bit weirded out by having a male do a hand massage as part of the manicure or a head massage at the hairdressers, and I must admit I do ask them to just skip the whole sensuous massage thing if it's a male, whereas I'm fine with that stuff if it's another female. That's just my personal preference as it feels quite intimate to me.

There are quite a few male manicurists in my area as they're typically the sons of family business owners who have grown up doing it, and I think it's positive that it's a potential career option nowadays for boys as well as girls if they're into that kind of thing.

AnalogueFondness · 01/06/2023 12:10

LonginesPrime · 01/06/2023 12:02

IME I've not noticed any correlation between the skill level of a manicurist and their biological sex - I've had great ones from both sexes and appalling ones from both sexes. Ditto re haircuts.

But it makes sense that some women are going to feel a bit weirded out by having a male do a hand massage as part of the manicure or a head massage at the hairdressers, and I must admit I do ask them to just skip the whole sensuous massage thing if it's a male, whereas I'm fine with that stuff if it's another female. That's just my personal preference as it feels quite intimate to me.

There are quite a few male manicurists in my area as they're typically the sons of family business owners who have grown up doing it, and I think it's positive that it's a potential career option nowadays for boys as well as girls if they're into that kind of thing.

I really would prefer it if men weren’t encouraged to become beauticians, etc, unless men made up an equal part of their customer-base. As it is, women are overwhelmingly the ones getting their nails done. It annoys me that I keep getting saddled with blokes and no one asks first if I mind, and when they appear, it’s too late to say “I was hoping for a woman”. It’s really awkward. And I usually love the massage part of it - it’s the bit I really go for, but I can’t relax when a man does it. My guard is up.

I wouldn’t say the skill level between the women and men is wildly different, more the stringency about hygiene IME.

AnalogueFondness · 01/06/2023 12:31

my grandfather was a gynaecologist and delivered me and my brothers

This really makes my head swim. The idea of one’s own dad looking up and putting his hands inside one’s vagina. 😮 How could your mum stand it?

GarethSouthgatesWaistcoat · 01/06/2023 12:42

Further to my last post I think it also has to do with selling fantasy. It's the whole point of the Disney parks and people want to feel they're meeting the 'real' characters brought to life, as close to their film likeness as possible.

Would Disney let a woman with multiple visible piercings and tattoos occupy the Fairy Godmother/Godmother's assistant role? Presumably they'd be told they needed to remove all the piercings and use heavy duty body make up to cover up the tattoos. Why is it okay for this man to a) inhabit a traditionally female role (are there any male princesses/fairies etc in the Disney oeuvre?) and b) retain his facial hair (there are no female Disney characters who sport male facial hair afaik).

Would they be so accepting of a GNC overweight, 'butch' woman who declined to wear make up? A woman with alopecia who refused to wear a wig? Do they even allow people with visible disabilities to inhabit these interactive character roles? Or are they limited to behind the scenes and kiosk/admin type roles? Would you see a Disney princess in a wheelchair or an amputee for example? I googled and came up blank which seems telling.

Another example would be race and ethnicity. As inclusive as Disney tries to be I'd be very surprised if they did obvious colourblind casting in their parks especially when it comes to Disney princesses and other very recognisable characters. Obviously they've tried to introduce diversity in the oeuvre over the years with some success. Looking online I've yet to come across a dark skinned black woman cast as Jasmine in the parks (although there may be some dubious fake tanning and wigs going on with paler European women 😬). Ditto Belle and any of the other European princesses. Disney princes and so on too.

I'm not really here to discuss the rights and wrongs but I understood Disney are pretty strict about employee physical presentation and grooming in their parks, particularly in customer facing roles. Why have allowances been made for a man to inhabit a traditionally female role when I don't see any evidence of inclusivity for any of the above. Some will say it's great that Disney have begun to subvert tradition but I'm curious why they've started with a white man's demands/preferences.

BodegaSushi · 01/06/2023 12:52

AnalogueFondness · 01/06/2023 12:31

my grandfather was a gynaecologist and delivered me and my brothers

This really makes my head swim. The idea of one’s own dad looking up and putting his hands inside one’s vagina. 😮 How could your mum stand it?

It's potentially worse? He was my dad's dad so her FIL 😂

I have asked her but she said she was in so much pain she just wanted me out she didn't care who did it

AnalogueFondness · 01/06/2023 12:53

BodegaSushi · 01/06/2023 12:52

It's potentially worse? He was my dad's dad so her FIL 😂

I have asked her but she said she was in so much pain she just wanted me out she didn't care who did it

😂 Ahhhh the idea of my father-in-law! I think that would freak out my DH too!

LonginesPrime · 01/06/2023 13:01

To me it seems more about the employee's experience rather than the paying customers'

I get that, GarethSouthgatesWaistcoat and I'm struggling with reconciling that too, if I'm honest. I do think it's good to normalise that boys can wear dresses (especially at Disneyland where many will want to) as I think that does help ease some of this gender distress that seems to be causing such misery in increasing numbers of children.

But on the other hand, the point of staff at Disneyland dressing up is to create a magical illusion for children (and adults!) of being in a fantasy world where the cartoons have come to life. Young children come away believing that they met the actual Cinderella, etc, which is pretty special when you're little.

And this might be my autism talking or it might be more common, but for me I think the disconnect is that men wearing dresses is jarring as it breaks that fantasy and brings you back to reality, where I then have to think "ok, so how is one supposed to handle this tricky situation, again?" and so for me, I'm shunted out of the fantasy world I was paying to experience to have this complex social demand placed on me that I need to navigate, which makes what should have been an enjoyable (and bloody expensive) relaxing family holiday far more stressful. I'm generally terrified of saying the wrong thing and being labelled transphobic, so I tend to avoid situations where it might occur nowadays as I find them too stressful to navigate. And then, I have to worry about whether my DC might say something inappropriate, and then if they do, what do I say in response to keep everyone happy without either potentially offending someone who does believe they were born in the wrong body and who experiences great distress around that or misinforming my DC by pretending that I believe that people can be born in the wrong body and that this man in a dress is actually a woman when I don't believe that and don't want my DC to grow up believing that either?

To be honest, I would just avoid that person if I were with my DC as it's such a social minefield and the whole thing evokes so much social anxiety in me (transphobia-phobia, if you will) that I'd rather just live and let live and take them over to the Buzz Lightyear shop instead to avoid the whole conflict.

And also when I saw this, I had to interrogate my own expectations about beauty and ask myself if I felt jarred by it because he doesn't look traditionally flawless like a woman in a dress and makeup playing that role at Disneyland would. Which is challenging, because he's wearing the same as the women and has probably made the same amount of effort with his makeup, but he still doesn't look like they would. Kind of like trying to shove a square peg into a round hole. So it makes me feel a bit sad for him too as his inner image of what he looks like doesn't appear to match his outer image, and even it does, this thought pops into my head anyway as that's how I interpret it because of the beauty standards we are fed as a society. I know that if he's happy looking like that then it's not my business to judge, but then who wants to pay to go to Disneyland to feel sad for the characters?

Also, I do find it quite sexist that Disneyland is purportedly so strict about its female actors' costumes, weight, behaviour, voices etc to maintain the illusion for visitors, but then they seem to ignore all of that when it comes to the male staff who can dress how they like. And not even all male staff, because the 'gender-conforming' men in Prince Charming costumes all have to be perfect too. How would it be if a woman decided they didn't want to shave their armpits and was walking round dressed as Ariel, for example? And if Disney's objection to that is that "it's about the customers' experience", then what is the justification here?

I wonder how much of my discomfort is around the fact that my immediate reaction is that if he isn't being mocking and misogynistic like a drag queen, then he must therefore believe himself to be a woman and be gender dysphoric, because these are the two types of men wearing dresses that we see in society at large (setting aside the kink angle and assuming this isn't anything to do with that). I've come to expect that men in dresses being respectful to women are wanting to be taken seriously as women, so I felt like there's currently no room in the narrative for respectful men who know they're men but who want to wear lovely dresses and fancy makeup. I feel like that's the missing piece of the puzzle that we need as a society at the moment to start to address kids' gender distress, and so I would want to be very cautious about objecting to any man who is modelling that behaviour as it's kind of what gender critical parents are teaching their children is exactly what IS acceptable (or at least should be).

burnoutbabe · 01/06/2023 13:09

Within Disneyland parks there are plenty of character actors on stage who I would say occupy the "gay best friend/buttons" type roles.

The male compère during frozen was decidedly on the camper end of the scale. He wore a flamboyant costume with long shorts. Which is give.

Have male fairy godmothers! But have then in a well fitting uniform. Boys can do the dress up princess thing and girls can do the pirate dress up thing. I don't think we need to drag up the greeters though to achieve that.

AnalogueFondness · 01/06/2023 13:14

this might be my autism talking or it might be more common

What you describe is a really accurate dissection of such fleeting thoughts, but are the true thoughts - the important ones with an emotional component which impact upon my day.

He would definitely spoil my enjoyment for all the reasons you describe- the feeling sorry for him, the illusion being shattered, awkwardness about socially navigating something contentious where we know we are extremely likely to be judged for getting it wrong.

I would definitely be annoyed- it is so bloody expensive and to think how well the princes and princesses are able to stay totally in character- you think, ah well, it takes a lot of money to run something so well - but this unwelcome shot of reality would spoil it.

MerlinsLostMarbles · 01/06/2023 13:17

Yes it's a man in a dress.

Never been to a Panto or seen Lily Savage on TV?

GarethSouthgatesWaistcoat · 01/06/2023 13:23

LonginesPrime · 01/06/2023 13:01

To me it seems more about the employee's experience rather than the paying customers'

I get that, GarethSouthgatesWaistcoat and I'm struggling with reconciling that too, if I'm honest. I do think it's good to normalise that boys can wear dresses (especially at Disneyland where many will want to) as I think that does help ease some of this gender distress that seems to be causing such misery in increasing numbers of children.

But on the other hand, the point of staff at Disneyland dressing up is to create a magical illusion for children (and adults!) of being in a fantasy world where the cartoons have come to life. Young children come away believing that they met the actual Cinderella, etc, which is pretty special when you're little.

And this might be my autism talking or it might be more common, but for me I think the disconnect is that men wearing dresses is jarring as it breaks that fantasy and brings you back to reality, where I then have to think "ok, so how is one supposed to handle this tricky situation, again?" and so for me, I'm shunted out of the fantasy world I was paying to experience to have this complex social demand placed on me that I need to navigate, which makes what should have been an enjoyable (and bloody expensive) relaxing family holiday far more stressful. I'm generally terrified of saying the wrong thing and being labelled transphobic, so I tend to avoid situations where it might occur nowadays as I find them too stressful to navigate. And then, I have to worry about whether my DC might say something inappropriate, and then if they do, what do I say in response to keep everyone happy without either potentially offending someone who does believe they were born in the wrong body and who experiences great distress around that or misinforming my DC by pretending that I believe that people can be born in the wrong body and that this man in a dress is actually a woman when I don't believe that and don't want my DC to grow up believing that either?

To be honest, I would just avoid that person if I were with my DC as it's such a social minefield and the whole thing evokes so much social anxiety in me (transphobia-phobia, if you will) that I'd rather just live and let live and take them over to the Buzz Lightyear shop instead to avoid the whole conflict.

And also when I saw this, I had to interrogate my own expectations about beauty and ask myself if I felt jarred by it because he doesn't look traditionally flawless like a woman in a dress and makeup playing that role at Disneyland would. Which is challenging, because he's wearing the same as the women and has probably made the same amount of effort with his makeup, but he still doesn't look like they would. Kind of like trying to shove a square peg into a round hole. So it makes me feel a bit sad for him too as his inner image of what he looks like doesn't appear to match his outer image, and even it does, this thought pops into my head anyway as that's how I interpret it because of the beauty standards we are fed as a society. I know that if he's happy looking like that then it's not my business to judge, but then who wants to pay to go to Disneyland to feel sad for the characters?

Also, I do find it quite sexist that Disneyland is purportedly so strict about its female actors' costumes, weight, behaviour, voices etc to maintain the illusion for visitors, but then they seem to ignore all of that when it comes to the male staff who can dress how they like. And not even all male staff, because the 'gender-conforming' men in Prince Charming costumes all have to be perfect too. How would it be if a woman decided they didn't want to shave their armpits and was walking round dressed as Ariel, for example? And if Disney's objection to that is that "it's about the customers' experience", then what is the justification here?

I wonder how much of my discomfort is around the fact that my immediate reaction is that if he isn't being mocking and misogynistic like a drag queen, then he must therefore believe himself to be a woman and be gender dysphoric, because these are the two types of men wearing dresses that we see in society at large (setting aside the kink angle and assuming this isn't anything to do with that). I've come to expect that men in dresses being respectful to women are wanting to be taken seriously as women, so I felt like there's currently no room in the narrative for respectful men who know they're men but who want to wear lovely dresses and fancy makeup. I feel like that's the missing piece of the puzzle that we need as a society at the moment to start to address kids' gender distress, and so I would want to be very cautious about objecting to any man who is modelling that behaviour as it's kind of what gender critical parents are teaching their children is exactly what IS acceptable (or at least should be).

Brilliantly articulated. Your last paragraph really brings it home.

While I was typing it did cross my mind, would I be as fussed if it was (for example) a young (or old 🤷‍♀️) man secure in his masculinity, larking around as a Disney Fairy Godmother's assistant/greeter. That seems different somehow but I didn't know how to articulate it. The options being mocking misogyny or gender ideology/trans/appropriating womanhood are exactly it. I suppose there's no way to tell if someone secure in their masculinity is a secret AGP but it's a start.

I don't know if you saw my second post, we were possibly typing at the same time but there are some overlapping themes regarding how female employees are expected to present, similar to your Ariel with unshaved armpits 🧜‍♀️

LonginesPrime · 01/06/2023 13:27

Yes GarethSouthgatesWaistcoat I realised afterwards that our posts had crossed!

MerlinsLostMarbles · 01/06/2023 13:30

zibzibara · 31/05/2023 08:47

So long as he doesn't pretend that this attire makes him a woman, I don't see any problem with this.

I watched the clip. He addresses himself as Nick, a man's name, and says he is a Fairy Godmother assistant. He might be trying to copy the accent from a character in Shrek 2.

I don't think we need to boycott Disneyland over how the fairygodmother assistants' uniforms look like...

Disneyland greeter
Musomama1 · 01/06/2023 13:36

I can see both sides on this one.

It's actually a bit of a phenomenon that many little boys became Elsa fixated having watched Frozen. Ive certainly seen several little boys wearing Elsa dresses over the years.

Is this Disney's response to that?

The other side is, is there a cut off when the innocence of wearing a dress and full make up as a boy becomes something different as a grown male, and is a children's store really the best place to exhibit that?

GAWI · 01/06/2023 13:45

Gareth Southgate you've given me lots of food for thought there. There was something about the cutesyness of the attire and the body language that is jarring. It makes me think of the wolf in red riding hood as grandma.

There's something about circumventing people's, and particularly children's radar that's uncomfortable. Mine would have been pinging like mad as a child.

There has been a mention of boys dressing up as Elsa. When my boys dressed up as princesses, they were very much them in a dress, they might have enjoyed the twirlyness but they didn't affect a hyper stereotypical fakeness (cocked head, mannerisms) with it, though not did my daughter.

GarethSouthgatesWaistcoat · 01/06/2023 13:57

I love all these thoughtful perspectives, I wish there was a 'like' button as I'm nodding along 🙂

Boiledbeetle · 01/06/2023 14:01

I hadn't really thought of the spoiling the illusion effect, as didn't like people dressed up even as a kid and we never went to Disney.

But i can see how if you truly believed you are going to meet the real life versions of your favourite film you'd be rather pissed off as a five year old boy or girl to discover Cinderella had a beard and Prince Charming was a tiny little woman.

You'd be in tears.

GarethSouthgatesWaistcoat · 01/06/2023 14:11

Merlin, Nic is a unisex name. My friend and a neighbour both go by Nic and they're female (full name Nicola).