Disneyland greeter

[Neverplayleapfrogwithmrpipes]

https://twitter.com/jonesville/status/1663381709667303425?s=46&t=mjCevLYB8rsDn2VcwfsB7w

This popped up on my Twitter regarding a Disney greeter called Nick in a dress.

My boys loved the Disney princesses and dressing up when they were little.
If this guy empowers boys to go in & look at/ try on/ buy the pretty dresses, good for him.

Honestly, I do struggle with men in feminine clothing ATM because I now associate it with hostility & misogyny but that's my own prejudice to sort out.

Nick's not claiming to be a woman.
He can wear what he likes.

I skimmed @Gatehouse77 's post too fast and read "buck conformity" as "tuck comfortably"...

That minor surprise aside, hard agree with everyone saying a man happy to be a man in a dress and happy to share Disney Princessing style with children of both sexes is a good thing.

I agree gender non-conformity good, equating it with gender "transition" bad.

The person tweeting appears to disapprove of both.

It's true to say though that in cultures where gender ideology rules, gender stereotyping has won and traditional female dress has become part of the semiotics of male to female "transition". It's often what is meant by "living as a woman".

Exactly this, the two things are becoming conflated in a really disappointing/dangerous way.

And then that leads to a kind of logical backflip in which people who disagree with gender ideology are wrongly characterised as also being against gender non-conformity. I find it infuriating.

@BaronMunchausen, @CovetedAsFuck I totally agree.

Just to loop back to one of my earlier comments, I would add that I would have no problem if Nick was a Nicola/trans woman as long as Nick was fully aware that Nick is a man. To be a man and a transwoman is not an issue. I'll happily use she/her to show a respect for someone's gender identity but that doesn't mean I believe it myself. I call our local vicar Reverend [insert first name here], never just her name, but that doesn't mean I revere her or God. I'm an atheist.

Because many men cross dress as a sexual kink, and kinks/paraphelias tend to cluster ie- a person with a kink normally doesn’t have just one kink, it’s more likely they will have many and this takes up a big part of their life/headspace, I don’t think we can really call a sexually mature adult man wearing a dress just ‘a man in a dress’ in the way you can say ‘a boy in a dress’ or ‘a woman in a dress’. If there is a sexual component to the crossdressing, then this is not appropriate attire for greeting children.

If the man was asked to wear a dress by his employer, it wouldn’t be an issue, if it was his idea, I think they shouldn’t agree to it.

Men can wear whatever they want. Never mind the fact these dresses are costumes anyway, on men or women. I'm very happy for my son to see that men are perfectly entitled to play this same dress-up, and for my daughters to see that wearing frilly dresses is in no way synonymous with being a woman.

I am, however, horrified by the pushy script, and the idea that there are parents who take their young children in this store to "pick out some pieces" at $250 a pop!

My friends then four year old boy begged for an Elsa dress when he first saw Frozen. He loved it and nearly wore the thing out. A few years later I don't think he's said he is a girl .

He doesn't seem to be sending up women, like a drag caricature-type thing - he seems to be just genuinely doing his job as a 'fairy godmother's apprentice', so I have no issue with this.

My opinion would change if he's also asserting that he is a biological woman because of his costume, but nothing suggests that in the clip.

I feel it's dangerous to assume that a man in a dress identifies as a woman, as it plays straight into the hands of the gender ideology narrative and reinforces the notion that wearing a dress is inextricably linked to someone's identity, which is exactly what gender ideologues believe.

Also, I think at Disneyland, it's a really great idea to see men in dresses (as long as they're not mocking women like drag queens do) as it helps parents to get more comfortable with the fact their boys might be desperate to wear a princess dress there. If the situation is as presented in the clip (i.e. that men can wear dresses too if they want), then I think that's a big step forward for tackling sexism and ultimately, the sexism inherent in gender ideology.

When you are talking adult men, I do wonder how many of them just innocently like the design.

And not rather, it's precisely because it's women's clothing that they have the interest in it, and if you made it "clothes for everyone" then that would undermine it.

I feel it's dangerous to assume that a man in a dress identifies as a woman, as it plays straight into the hands of the gender ideology narrative and reinforces the notion that wearing a dress is inextricably linked to someone's identity, which is exactly what gender ideologues believe.

@LonginesPrime I completely agree. From personal experience, a male acquaintance of mine likes to wear dresses on occasion, last time I saw him at a party he had on a silver sequined frock with a fit that was actually quite flattering for his build. To my knowledge, not once has he ever attempted to identify as a woman, and I feel it would be very wrong to make that assumption.

I'd prefer to see him in a well designed princess costume that suits him. A male fairy godmother outfit? A long skirt to cover socks?

Plenty of boys want to do the glitter of that boutique.

Outfit looks silly on him, with the makeup. Like a parody.

That doesn't mean I don't think they should encourage much more gender fluid costumes for the kids (girls may want to be a Disney prince like Prince Charming) or more appropriate outfits for male greeters (and female greeters who prefer trousers)

I think that men wearing dresses is more often linked to a 'performance' and a deeply psychological drive often with a sexual element linked to that.

It's not just a fashion choice. It could be, if it was mainstream and normalised over time. That would probably happen through a fashion scene, spilling out into the mainstream over time. It would probably initially have a different take for men and how they wear dresses. It would be experimental, edgy interesting playing with boundaries.

Once it was then normalised and mainstream and accepted as socially acceptable then I'd be ok with men wearing dresses working for Disney.

This instead is obvious top down social engineering, where something that is not yet socially accepted is being forced into spaces for children. Children are being used to try to engineer this change. Show children social norms don't matter is the message. Lots of people think this is a good message. I don't and I don't think most people do.

The view this is just a fashion choice is hugely naïve. It's transgressive of social norms. Deliberately so, and performed for children.

We can claim some social norms are outdated, but that is for society to decide.

I'm fine with fashion students, clubbers, teen-agers in their own time experimenting with fashion and challenging the boundaries and this changing how we view the boundaries. That was happening in the 80s. It was great.

I'm not happy with individuals, at work, choosing to transgress norms which make others uncomfortable, and enforcing this on others.

This idea that there are no 'norms' and the belief, or feeling there should be, is just old fashioned prejudiced, is just queer theory.

That's what this guy is doing and we know it. He's queering Disney deliberately.

All societies have norms, you can't just throw them because a few people decide they're pointless. It has to be by general consent.

Most people are not yet comfortable with men in dresses in most contexts.

I'm not and I wouldn't want this at Disney or in my child's school.
It would confuse children

My thinking is kind of similar to <malagas'.

Males in dresses could be socially normed, for sure. Though designers have tried over recent decades to do that with men in skirts, and it just never took off.

Which makes it difficult to see it when it appears now, at the height of GI madness, to see it as an organic fashion development.

That being said, maybe he just got stuck for the day being a fairy godmother apprentice because his co-worker was out?

But I can see why many Americans would be suspicious, especially with the Disney corporation. They don't really have any goodwill left among a lot of people.

I wish we would be more open to men wearing dresses if they want without them needing to equate it to being a woman. If you have xy chromosomes and want to wear women's clothing so what. We have a nice chap locally who wears women's clothing but he doesn't pretend that makes him female, he's a well adjusted chap who prefers dresses end of

It's just a bloke in a disney princess costume.

I mean there are people wandering around dressed as mice FGS.

I think it's great that they've let him work in a dress and (barring inappropriate outfits) I want my kids to have examples of both sexes wearing all sorts of clothes, makeup (or no makeup) etc so that they feel free to express themselves however they want to. My brother loved wearing dresses, pink sparkly stuff etc as a child and it was a great shame that he and his school peers didn't have role models to show that it was okay because he felt like he wasn't allowed to once he became aware of social norms. They really need to tailor the employee a dress that fits better though!

Fine. Same as its fine for a girl to dress like a superhero

I agree with you - its no more sexual than a woman in a dress

Well you can think that all you like but he can call himself what he likes and dress how he likes and he also has every right to not give a flying fuck whether you have a problem with it or consider it "your business"

He looks great and I hope it helps other people who are rightly becoming increasingly scared (because of people like you OP who posted this) to dress in any way that might be construed as trans or fem.

i would very much hope he hasn't been forced into that costume as a co-worker is sick! that would be a bit against dignity at work policies. i assume he is happy to wear it.

its the ott make up that makes it look odd, and i thought disney had a very consertavitve policy about make up/ heck even beards and earings (though its lightened up a bit now)

I too don't really see a problem with this. If he said his name was Nicola then I would.

so this is what you originally said. That if he chose to call himself a feminine name you’d take issue with that. Now I called you out on it you’ve changed your mind and suddenly you only have an issue if he identifies as a woman.

perhaps if people like you were more open minded fewer males would need to identify as trans to be able to dress the way they want to. There’s absolutely nothing to suggest this person is trans but you dislike him anyway just in case he might be. That’s transphobic.

I think people are being a bit naive if they think a man wouldn’t dress up as a fairy godmother for kink purposes.

Grayson Perry is open about they sexual element of his crossdressing, and this outfit he is wearing wouldn’t look out of place in Disney.

the not they

It's a lie to tell boys wearing dresses is fine.

It's not, because it's not socially acceptable. And that will have consequences for children, maybe harsher consequences than not wearing the clothes you want.

You may think it should be acceptable or wish it were, but it's not. At least not now or yet.

We should tell boys it's fine to wear dresses only once loads of the dads are wearing them without comment.
Then we'd be telling the truth.
It would then be socially fine. The culture would have changed sufficiently for children to included without repercussions. Let adults decide the agreed boundaries before involving children.

This use of children to try to engineer the norms you think there should be, isn't in the children's interest, it's in the interest of adults who want to create the norms they think there should be. And who believe these new norms they aspire to are morally better, so lying to your child is a sign of your virtue.

Children are pawns in the Trans culture war, but equally pawns in the gender critical belief system, both are lying to children. One about biological reality and the other that social norms are irrelevant to them.

Either way it's all about queering the culture, conveying to children all norms are oppressive, and Disney will convey that message for you to their market of children.