Disneyland greeter

[Neverplayleapfrogwithmrpipes]

https://twitter.com/jonesville/status/1663381709667303425?s=46&t=mjCevLYB8rsDn2VcwfsB7w

This popped up on my Twitter regarding a Disney greeter called Nick in a dress.

We should tell boys it's fine to wear dresses only once loads of the dads are wearing them without comment.
No, we should tell them its fine, so it becomes fine

People have kinks out of the weirdest things. The thing is, you could be turning someone on by walking past them - if you didnt know, then are you offended?

I get that you would feel uncomfortable if you can see it, or if its overt, but can you really thought police people? Obviously if the behaviour was unacceptable, or clothing inappropriate then that not right

There's lots of stuff going on behind this situation though which I have no idea about as I have not been following Disney ditches 'fairy godmothers' for gender neutral titles (nypost.com)

"The moves come as Disney finds itself ensnared in a culture war in Florida over the state’s “Don’t Say Gay” law. Earlier this year, Disney CEO Bob Chapek declined to speak out against the Florida law, which bans the discussion of gender identity and sexual orientation for kids in kindergarten through third grade."

I saw this story and thought similar. I have no problem with a man in a dress or women in trousers. I don’t care who wears make up or nail varnish. It’s going to depend if it stops there or whether there’s an indoctrination or ideology behind it. That’s where I have a problem.

Crossdressing is up there as one of the most common fetishes for men. In an environment which is primarily aimed at entertaining children, there should be more consideration.

That ny post article is utterly pathetic 😂 I can't believe people actually get paid to write these "opinions".

Well he's not exactly David Beckham in a sarong is he...
That aside this is America where the most puritanical attitudes exist - can't see it going well.

It’s the trans flag colours.

Men can wear dresses and still be men. That is all!

No, we should tell them its fine, so it becomes fine

No. You don't use kids to change cultural norms.

And in your argument you reveal it's a lie. We say it's fine so it becomes fine, so obviously it's not fine yet?

Tell them if you want to tell the truth that (unless they're very young then it is socially fine) that wearing a dress would confuse people, people will stare and make comments they may not fit in with friends groups, they may feel shame and embarrassment because others view it as odd, they will be talked about across the school. That's the truth.

It's not just 'fine'. Its transgressing a social norm has serious consequences.

Why is it so vital that kids wear the clothes they want? In no other culture is this the case and they have mentally healthier kids.

Instead tell kids you wear what is within the bounds of the cultural norm you live in. Once your older you can make choices to transgress this as you want, with the knowledge and understanding of the consequences of that.

Pretending to kids 'its fine' and that transgressing the cultural norms has no consequences is a lie dressed up as virtue.

Nicola is both a male and a female name depending what part of the world you are in

having had some of my best nights out in the 80s a man wearing a dress doesn't bother me. Thats just a gender stereotype after all.

as long as no-one insists that the guy at the door must be a woman because he is a wearing a dress then Disney can knock themselves out.

If it helps just one little boy realise its OK to grow up a boy AND wear a dress, job done.

If someone points at the man in the dress and then tells their son that "see this means you are actually a girl" then still no issue with the man in the dress but I would like to have a serious conversation with the parent.

@MalagaNights you are making very interesting points, but I don’t know if I entirely agree. I think kids should be able to dress up however they want as play, but there should be a distinction between play and being formal. So a four year-old boy in a Disney princess dress, fine, but telling him he can wear a skirt as part of his school uniform when he goes to reception is not fine, because it is not part of the boys’ uniform.

I'm going to loop back slightly on what I said, having given it some more thought in the light of the recent comments...

I still have no issue if Nick is a TW and/or likes to be called Nicola. If he does, he's still a man but I can respect a wish to use she/her..... However....
Schools and social media are very blinkered in the way they address sexist stereotypes. It would be very easy for everyone to be encouraged to celebrate Nick as a TW because he's wearing a dress i.e. that's how we know he's a TW. That's a totally different message to young boys -that's effectively saying you can't wear a dress unless you identify as a girl. The problem is that sexist stereotypes (like dresses) are locked in place by gender identity because dresses are seen as an outward expression of a gender identity. So I'm really hoping Nick just sees himself as a man in a dress when he's working with children, not an ambassador for the idea that the dress can only be worn by him because he's a trans woman.

We're in a ridiculous place ATM with "don't say gay" teaming with anti-trans under a primarily religiously-led loud US right wing... and the nuanced debate in the UK about sex and gender (that primarily has nothing to do with gay people) being wrapped up in an angry mix.

Irrespective of whether men wear dresses for kink (I'm aware some do), it shouldn't change the idea that a man can wear a dress to sell dresses to boys and girls. Although, I've no idea who would pay that much for one. That's madness.

To clarify:

"Nothing to do with gay people" - I mean that gay people and trans people are not force-teamed.

Gay people are very much adversely impacted.

A poor choice of words on my part.

I agree with this.

I think you can honestly say to a boy:

We think it's fine for boys to wear dresses so you can wear what you like at home and when you're playing. But in school and out in the community you'll see that boys and men don't wear dresses so it would be difficult for you if you did. So you can't.

This may change over time, they may decide when they're older they don't care how different they are, but don't pretend to them 'its fine' and don't pretend to yourself if you do this that it won't have consequences for them.

Yes they get to wear a dress. At what cost? Why is the dress so important? Tell kids clothes do not define you so dressing within rules and norms doesn't damage you.

Once it really is the social norm then it really is fine for kids. But one man at Disney deliberately forcing a new norm to people who don't accept it isn't how positive social change happens.

Kids are being used for people's politics not for their own good.

I don't generally have an issue with men in dresses, but there is just something icky about a man in a dress selling princess dresses to little girls. Maybe that says more about me that him but thats how I feel.

in terms of pretend play with kids, honestly I just think there is no issue what kids wear. And most people know with very yong kids like toddlers, therer is really no issue either.

As you say, with other settings, we can tell kids it's not the social custom. That's what it comes down to, it's a social custom, but not that important of a social custom, because really it's not a big deal, inherently, what people wear.

But if we accept that it isn't a big deal, there isn't really much reason to go out of our way to flout the custom. No one has a deep internal need to wear a dress. It's not a big deal if social custom doesn't usually have men in dresses.

What that means is that the men who go out of their way to do it in any case are often doing it very deliberately for a reason. It just might be that they are into being very fashion forward. Maybe they want to be noticed. Maybe they want to push boundaries.

The idea that if only we didn't have customs like this, people wouldn't be needing/wanting to push boundaries, I think is a little naive. For one thing, there will always be culturally define social customs and boundaries. I think that even the more arbitrary ones work to give shape to people's lives in a way that is often useful. For another, there will always be people who want to push boundaries, and they will find them one way or another. It's not really about the dress or pants or whatever.

I don’t think it is icky.

There’s a social boundary where men aren’t supposed to take too much of an interest in what women are wearing, otherwise they are overstepping the mark. Dressing is quite personal and intimate and is generally sex-segregated. I know that men like Gok Wan are trying to normalise pushing this boundary, but it still rankles as inappropriate and disrespectful when men do it. Women and girls are not dolls for men to dress up.

sorry I should have said I agree that it’s icky

No, we should tell them its fine, so it becomes fine

No. You don't use kids to change cultural norms.

I respectfully disagree, why do kids have to wear what our elders think? With that reasoning we can go back to middle ages and wear long skirts and cover our heads? Is that what you think we should be doing? Do you think that the teenagers of the 50 and 60s made their parents happy with their long hair and flares and mini skirts, no they didnt

My kids can wear whatever they like, at whatever age they like.

The first reply has said everything and has it spot on.
Nothing wrong with challenging stereotypes. Only problem is if you want people to pretend it makes you something you're not.

I agree with this.

The idea that we can individually dispense with cultural norms without consequence is horribly naive.

Those who would say to their son it's fine to wear a dress would you be fine with your husband deciding to wear a dress?

I think any parent who tells their son it's fine should also make sure the dad does it too at work and when socialising to show how fine it is.

There is a vast difference between a pre school age boy wearing a dress and a man wearing a dress. I view a man in a dress as someone to be wary of, like the wolf in Little Red Riding Hood. It is naive to think clothes are just clothes. They are the most visible manifestations of who we are both in a personal a corporate sense.

Agree.
It’s not “just a dress”, anyway. It’s very specifically a little girl’s dress, that no girl over the age of 10 (being generous) would dream of wearing.