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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why is it socially acceptable to stereotype and vilify white women as a whole?

640 replies

TheTERFnextDoor · 30/05/2023 18:08

I've seen this a lot recently, often from other white women bizarrely, and I don't understand why it's socially acceptable?

I think it goes without saying that in most groups, you get good and bad people. White women are surely no different in that respect? Yes, many of them are privileged, and they don't face the discrimination that other categories might. I accept that. However, that doesn't change the fact that they aren't some homogeneous mass of people, surely?

I am genuinely trying to learn here, so I'd appreciate all responses, particularly those that disagree Smile

OP posts:
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Signalbox · 02/06/2023 18:47

DemiColon · 02/06/2023 18:30

What are you talking about?

I’m intrigued too.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 02/06/2023 20:17

TheHoover · 02/06/2023 18:31

@BernardBlacksMolluscs oh gosh the suggestion that equity is about everyone receiving the same awful treatment! And then everyone nodding along at that sound argument…..

so ignoring the baiting, who is actually responsible for inequities in maternal outcomes? Is it the racist NHS? And who is responsible for ignoring it for well over 15 years to the extent that no-one even knows about it? Definitely not black women who have been screaming about this fr the rooftops but……either no-one listens or no-one does anything about it. It certainly wouldn’t be the fucking case if black women were in positions of seniority. And it’s not just one nice easy feminist-friendly stat to hang your coat on - the scale of healthcare inequities in many other services is just as shocking. But…..we carry on…..not our problem, we are not the perpetrators, it’s the shocking NHS.

but is isn’t just the NHS that is disgraceful….there are inequities in outcomes in every walk of life. And that’s just the stuff that’s measurable. What about the insidious low level everyday racism that is experienced every day. You know, like the insidious everyday sexism that we experience at the hands of MEN.

As I said upthread there are things that every person in a position of power (and indeed those that are not) can do about it. If they want to accept the problem and if they are determined to make change happen. It’s not just about seeing and calling out racism when you see it. That’s not what structural racism is all about - it runs really really deep.

As I said upthread there are things that every person in a position of power (and indeed those that are not) can do about it

great

the only constructive suggestion I’ve seen on this thread was from @LangClegsInSpace . I’ve book marked her post and will be writing to my MP once I’m not on holiday.

what have you got?

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 02/06/2023 20:19

Signalbox · 02/06/2023 18:47

I’m intrigued too.

Me 3

i find this whole ‘well you know how sinister that person is, so sinister I can’t even talk about it, stop pretending you don’t know’ stuff really puzzling

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 02/06/2023 20:20

Misstache · 02/06/2023 18:31

The British paid reparations to the slave owners in the Caribbean. Haiti paid hundreds of billions to France over more than a century - reparations for having the audacity to successfully rebel and end slavery. Reparations are only impossible and unimaginable once it’s Black people demanding justice.

The Caricom 10 point reparations plan includes items like cancelling debt given that the wealth of the countries targeted was extracted from enslavement. The wealth of the Caribbean powered the industrial Revolution (the origins of factories were in places like Barbados where the cane was cut, boiled and processed on site) and those same industrial economies now power climate change - the same climate change that causes the hurricanes that decimate the Caribbean yearly and put them further in debt. The “developed” countries could provide the rebuilding money as grants but they refuse. This wealth inequality is ongoing, not ancient history at all.

https://caricomreparations.org/caricom/caricoms-10-point-reparation-plan/

Really informative post, thank you

TheHoover · 02/06/2023 21:07

@DemiColon
wtaf?
read your post of 17.41.
have you lost the plot?

DresdenChina · 02/06/2023 21:09

I will tell you what I am sick of; Americans and American generated ideologies of which Intersectionality is one literally infiltrating and taking over one of the only places on the Internet where European values concerning issues take precedence, it's Cultural Imperialism, Ideological harassment, Cult like thinking that is also exactly the same as the circular argument style used by another group of ideologists we challenge all the time here.

Not that any of the people ( mainly Americans themselves or those Europeans seduced into ignoring class and sex as the most important measures of inequality in socialist thinking) on here espousing that seem to care, look at how almost instantly the conversation degenerated into presenting American centric position as FACT, that somehow racist takes like 'white women tears' and the connected sneering at any white woman who has the fucking audacity to cry or kick off, was somehow socially acceptable? that if you dont accept the ideological idea of intersectionality you are somehow racists whose opinions count for nothing?

Look at this thread, it should be talking about how white women are being constantly maligned, openly, agressively, online and in real life, by almost every group, including some white women! Instead its taken over by Americans or those Europeans totally in thrall to Americal thinking competely ignoring that they are on a British website, banging on about statistics in America about how black people are having a rough time, when white women are actually mentioned its in dismissive terms - its deliberate derailment, and it obsessive looking at the world through a lens of race, to the point that even 'feminists' put women and their needs a far second to any brown mans, simply due to the colour of their skin. Its the opposite of feminism and anyone who claims to be an acolyte of intersectionlism and feminism is lying about the feminist part. Its also of course complete crap that this attack on white women is 'only' coming from other white people.

Or the way frequently on here Trans issues are discussed as if its some sort of white only failing, even Glinner has fallen into it. And thats because most people who consider themselves liberal are desperate to not point the finger at brown people ever, becaused of the ideology of critical race theory, infiltrating socialist thinking and now requiring all 'right thinking' white people to prostrate themselves at the alter of white guilt. This obsession with race as the only measure of inequality and most important in any situation, with Americans and their European handmaids ( because thats what you are) is perpetuating cult thinking.

CRT and intersectionlism is a argument using legal logic in a legal case that has warped and morphed into a dangerous cult ideology out inn the real world, just as dangerous as Trans ideology, why cant epople who can see through all the logical fallacies of gender ideology not see the same here? Ive even seen utter craziness on here derailing the discussion about white women to talk about maternal death level of black women, with claims that the NHS which is filled to the brim with brown and black people from all over the world is somehow deliberately killing black pregnant women, the assumption being it must be raced based lack of care, no one even looking at potential other issues. Meanwhile in a ethnically white continent with class/sex based issues, where only 3% are black and 13% ethnically non white in all, race is constantly focused on.

There are plenty of places for Americans to talk about feminism from your cultural position, or for CRT adherents to push their unhealthy take, at least have the goddam manners if you refuse to allow a space to exists without you pushing your opinions ( doesnt that sound familiar) to acknowledge your attitudes and opinions are NOT fact, point out you are American, or you adhere to American idology, because its almost impossible to parse this thread without that. Its time American bullying online of anyone challenging their cultural takes on issues, was stopped.

Its horrifying to see the casual mysogyny on this thread all tied up in a nice neat CRT/intersectional bow - you arnt feminists and you are putting the boot in just like any TRA would.

DresdenChina · 02/06/2023 21:14

And just in the time I have written this, not one comment actually talking about white women and the shit they are on the recieving end of - yet again ignored so all the CRT enthusiasts can continue to talk about anything but the problems for white women.

You are trolling and derailing and definitaly not acting in good faith. So why dont you toddle off and start your own American Musnet?

TheHoover · 02/06/2023 21:15

@BernardBlacksMolluscs
What have I got?
Given that this is a key element of my day job I have a whole evidence base of what helps to addresses structural inequalities in healthcare (board-level commitments, better data capture and analysis, community engagement, education of staff, education of patients and communities, clinical research, intercontinental partnership programmes, dedicated resource) and in employment (pretty similar).

but if NHS chiefs don’t give a shit and /or don’t think anything can be done like the average person on FWR the street then absolutely none of this begins to happen.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/06/2023 21:15

Demanding discomfort from white people - not so much, as DWP have just found out, to the tune of £100,000:

https://thecritic.co.uk/how-one-woman-took-on-the-dwp-and-won/

Good for Anna. There is no place for disputed, controversial political ideology imposed top down in the workplace. The obvious comparison is gender identity ideology.

TheHoover · 02/06/2023 21:23

@DresdenChina
so a thread about women and racism is not allowed to talk about racism alone but you and others are (repeatedly) allowed to conflate anti-racism with trans activism?

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 02/06/2023 21:26

TheHoover · 02/06/2023 21:15

@BernardBlacksMolluscs
What have I got?
Given that this is a key element of my day job I have a whole evidence base of what helps to addresses structural inequalities in healthcare (board-level commitments, better data capture and analysis, community engagement, education of staff, education of patients and communities, clinical research, intercontinental partnership programmes, dedicated resource) and in employment (pretty similar).

but if NHS chiefs don’t give a shit and /or don’t think anything can be done like the average person on FWR the street then absolutely none of this begins to happen.

i meant what have you got for the posters here?

you seem to feel that we should feel personal responsibility for racism? Surely if we are personally responsible then we can personally take action?

this comment is partly tongue in cheek but also serious. I was delighted to see the constructive suggestion from @LangClegsInSpace and will be following it. I am appalled by the risks black women and their babies face simply by virtue of their race

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 02/06/2023 21:33

TheHoover · 02/06/2023 21:07

@DemiColon
wtaf?
read your post of 17.41.
have you lost the plot?

You’re still doing that cryptic thing then?

have you considered saying what you mean?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/06/2023 21:37

Posters making that conflation are not talking about anti racism in general, they are talking about disputed political theories like critical theory.

TheHoover · 02/06/2023 21:52

@Ereshkigalangcleg oh yeah? Everyone?

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 02/06/2023 21:52

TheHoover · 02/06/2023 21:23

@DresdenChina
so a thread about women and racism is not allowed to talk about racism alone but you and others are (repeatedly) allowed to conflate anti-racism with trans activism?

I have disagreed with virtually everything @TheHoover and those on her side have said on this thread, but I do think it’s quite unfair to slate them for discussing race, including US race theory, when that is what the OP is about. We all know the Karen phenomenon started in the US (though it has manifested differently here), as has the ‘white women’s tears’ trope.

It’s also perfectly reasonable for them to contest the premise of the OP.

MN is one of the few places where we could have had a debate this contentious without it descending into personal abuse. I totally disagree with many of the points made, but I have found the debate really interesting.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/06/2023 21:52

That was my perception, but I may have missed something.

TheHoover · 02/06/2023 21:59

@BernardBlacksMolluscs
i think most people on here know how to take action against something you vehemently feel is wrong but is not getting the attention it deserves. You are voters, you are employees, you can hold public officials to account, you can shout until you make sure people listen to you etc etc
it boils down to caring a lot, being passionate, having tenacity & resilience….:

And maybe quitting with the critique of intersectionality. Eg the issues at play that cause the police force to be vile and misogynistic are the same that cause them to be vile and racist….

Overthinkingnotdrinking · 02/06/2023 22:04

@DresdenChina brilliant post

DemiColon · 02/06/2023 22:08

As far as maternal outcomes, one of the unfortunate things about the ideology of edi type thinking is it looks at disparities, and assigns any disparity to racism (or, in the feminist version of this thinking, sexism,) and that tends to obscure any serious research into what the actual material causes are. Adolph Reed wrote a really good paper on this some years ago that's well worth reading.

If we want to know who is responsible to make changes, or what those changes should be, it really requires specifically identifying the causes of the disparity. Including things like doing a much more specific analysis of the numbers, controlling for other factors, etc. The big advantage of this is that it is much more likely to be successful at addressing the specific problem than just throwing around cash.

Qazwsxefv · 02/06/2023 22:18

@TheHoover

most women here will know how to take action probably

but the majority of white women being called “Karen” in the uk wont know how to take action. They don’t have a voice. They are unlikely to vote, they are probably not in secure employment if any, they will have no idea how to hold a public official to account as the majority of their interactions with people in authority are likely to be negative. Their MP will not be interested in their views (since they are unlikely to vote) and they may not have a level of literacy suitable to write a letter or email that would even be read.

if such women are guilty of promoting structural racism how do you propose they stop doing so?

DemiColon · 02/06/2023 22:22

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/06/2023 21:37

Posters making that conflation are not talking about anti racism in general, they are talking about disputed political theories like critical theory.

What is very confusing to some people, and I think they are entirely honestly confused, is that the current American political ideology that people like DiAngelo and Kendi espouse is very often just called, "Anti-racism". The capital A being important, because it is a very specific approach to the topic, different than other approaches to civil rights.

It's not dissimilar to the way many regular people thought of BLM simply as a kind of generalized statement about equal care for black Americans rather than a specific organization with a particular set of ideas it was promoting and raising money to (supposedly) make happen. So anyone who seemed to be skeptical of the things the organization said or did was seen as rejecting basic equality of dignity principles.

I think some people tend to purposefully make use of that obscurity to avoid having to actually defend their views. It's much easier to just call someone who disagrees with you about reparations a racist than it is to do the math or tease out the logical implications or think about the long term consequences.

But it seems to be pretty disingenuous for people to claim not to realize that people are disagreeing about a very particular set of CRT type ideas, while actively arguing for those specific ideas.

DemiColon · 02/06/2023 22:28

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 02/06/2023 21:33

You’re still doing that cryptic thing then?

have you considered saying what you mean?

I suspect that would not be fit for purpose.

The chance we will get some kind of explanation about what McWhorter's reasons are, as opposed to mine, is slim.

DresdenChina · 02/06/2023 22:39

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

TheHoover · 02/06/2023 22:50

look I am more than happy with the critique of US CRT. It all amounts to reading, hearing, understanding and forming alternative views on how to tackle the problem as opposed to minimisation and deflection.

this thing is kinda bigger than point scoring on an internet forum.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 03/06/2023 05:41

TheHoover · 02/06/2023 22:50

look I am more than happy with the critique of US CRT. It all amounts to reading, hearing, understanding and forming alternative views on how to tackle the problem as opposed to minimisation and deflection.

this thing is kinda bigger than point scoring on an internet forum.

And yet some of your answers have felt pretty point scorey

all that cryptic nonsense about John Mcwhorter for example