Kathleen Stock was on Good Morning Britain This Morning

[dunBle]

although she got talked over by Ed Balls quite a lot. It'll be on ITV1+1 at about 7:40 I think until just before 8am.

That was a man desperately trying not to look too hard at his beliefs wasn’t it?

’but my relationship with my son depends on me pretending that I believe some men are women. Please stop making so much sense Kathleen!’

The TRA have alienated and attacked their strongest allies among GC women - Prof Stock, JKR...just more proof of how nuts and destructive the whole movement is.

Well quite.

"I'm telling you it's complicated"

To a woman who has literally written a book on the subject and was hounded out of her job and continues to face criticism for speaking truths on the subject.

So arrogant and patronising. Yet another man telling a woman what a woman is.

I love Kathleen's expressions in response to his statements 😂

At least he's on record stating that women don't have a penis so there's the upside.

EB - Someone who has transitioned and wants to be a woman, I think it's fine to call them a woman. I don't know why you don't want to allow them to make that choice

I realise there's no point in answering EB on this thread, but as this line typifies one of the bad faith arguments that gets flung arount by TRAs a lot I think it's worth providing the counter anyway.

No, Ed. It's not that I don't want to allow "them" to make that choice.

It's that the choice they want to make for themselves forces a new definition of womanhood onto all women whether we want it for ourselves or not.

Because the only way to believe that male people can be called women is if one believes that a woman, which I also am, is a woman not because of her body, with all that entails socially and physically, but because of something in her mind.

And if society belives that, it believes that woman's rights and protections, and indeed women's experiences, needs and political voice, are not shaped by the needs and challenges of the female-bodied half of humanity but by those who feel they have a female mind.

As a female-bodied person, I look at the history of my sex's fight to escape from the legal, social, intellectual, political and cultural margins where male people kept us, and to be recognised as complete, equal and worthwhile humans in our own right. To understand and define ourselves rather than accept the definitions men placed upon us based on what they observed and assumed. To tell our own stories in our own voices, not simply be the characters in narratives written from the outside by men. And I am not prepared to go back to Womanhood being something men decide for us.

So it's not that I don't want to allow them to make a choice for themselves, it's that the choice they want to make for themselves is also a choice they are also making for me, and it is that which I cannot accept.

Balls was arrogant, patronising and a terrible host, who kept talking over the guest who had given up her time to appear on his show. Kathleen has the patience of a saint and I don't know how she keeps her cool when she's constantly interrupted and often misrepresented. Looking forward to the C4 programme tomorrow.

*flirtswithrhinos"

Brilliant post

I don't think Ed Jr will be happy about the penis comment ...

She’s good isn’t she, smart and unflappable. I think many started off agreeing to treat TW as women like Ed wants (the local TW on my street didn’t pass, but she wasn’t interfering with my life - live and let live). But that wasn’t enough and the TRAs can’t help pushing for more - access to women’s spaces/sports, no women’s spaces where TW not included, TW on women’s wards, women to be referred to as “bodies with vaginas”, children to be given hormones etc. etc. now is IS interfering in my life. Now we have to draw a line in the sand and say No.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/29/kathleen-stock-says-she-is-a-moderate-as-protests-planned-over-oxford-debate

Another article in which they say twice say Stock "argues that transgender people cannot expect all the rights afforded by biological sex."

KS - it depends how you phrase the question. If you ask can a woman have a penis, most people say no.

EB - Yeah but I agree with that.

Did he mean that he agrees that women can have a penis, or that women can't have a penis? This part was unclear to me.

The Guardian has misquoted her about children. She said something about Irreversible changes to children's bodies causes upset, upset to their parents. Note the comma.

The Guardian are truly scum promoting this stuff.

KS is so cool though isn't she? After all she's been through, still able to laugh at pompous mansplaining prats.

@zibzibara Ed is looking for a middle ground. Maybe half a penis? Or only half of women have a penis?

If you interrogate Balls's position you can see the idiocy of it. He's saying that Stock's position - insisting that humans can't change sex - is extreme.

A moderate position, in his view, is knowing that humans can't change sex, but pretending that they can.

How can requiring people to tell lies be a moderate position?

Wonder why Ed kept talking over Kathleen? Was he frightened that her sensible, reasonable point of view makes just a little bit too much sense? Quick, talk over her before she peaks the audience! Or was he fearing a backlash from his nearest and dearest? I can’t believe he tried to paint her as being on the “extreme” side. It felt like she was being given a ticking off for being a naughty gender-critical woman hurting people’s feelings. How mean of her to not let people be women if they want to be women. Listen up, Ed - it’s not Kathleen stopping men from becoming women. It’s that terfy old bigot known as Mother Nature. Reality matters in life and in law. Nothing is stopping people from presenting however they please. They just can’t change sex.

Anyone who starts their sentence with " I am telling you.." sounds like a fucking knob. "Oh ok then wise one".

Agreed. So hard to put that point into words for others and this does so perfectly.

@FlirtsWithRhinos can I steal your wording for a sort of leaflet I'm putting together for myself/friends/family to explain GC position?

Yes of course, please do take anything you find useful from my posts. I see FWR as a resource we build between us.

It's also totally shit as an interviewer. What decent interviewer gets someone on to talk and starts with "I'm telling you..."

@FlirtsWithRhinos
Thanks!
You are right such an amazing resource.

He's got a vested interest in it being complicated because if it's simple and he's been wrong all this time, well....then he's simple is the implication.

Thanks for that. Balls is such an idiot.

His pathetic attempt to be 'the reasonable man' is absolutely nauseating

Yes, clear and calm and moderate as always. TRAs trying to paint someone like KS as a hateful bigot just exposes the paucity of their arguments.

Whittle is smarter than that.

It’s likely the real reason is that nobody who takes the time to listen to her could fail to see how reasonable and considered her views are.

Any claim that her views are extreme is a desperate attempt to silence her because they can’t afford for anyone to hear what she has to say.

"Lots of people would say that's an extreme view"

'Lots of people say' is really cowardly way to conduct an argument

If you believe it Ed then say so

He knows its nonsense which is why he hides behind it