Can anyone point me to any stats on whether fully transitioned males (mtf) are any less violent than men as a group generally?

[Chamomileteaplease]

I recently had the unfortunate and shocking, though sadly I know not unusual, conversation recently with a much-loved relative where I was called a terf etc etc.

We could barely talk about it because I didn't want to fall out with him.

But we started talking about men in women's spaces and although it is common sense that if you were to come across a man in a dress you know you would treat him with the same caution you would any other man. But a fully transitioned one? Do they lose any male aggression? Are we any safer around them? I imagine not but would appreciate any research/knowledge.

[Ofcourseshecan]

I’ve never seen any proper research on this, OP.

I was surprised to read Stonewall saying, years ago, that only a tiny proportion of MTFs have genital surgery, around 5%. I trust Stonewall on that, as I would have thought of didn’t suit their ‘harmless’ TWAW agenda.

[Ofcourseshecan]

@Ofcourseshecan

I’ve never seen any proper research on this, OP.

I was surprised to read Stonewall saying, years ago, that only a tiny proportion of MTFs have genital surgery, around 5%. I trust Stonewall on that, as I would have thought of didn’t suit their ‘harmless’ TWAW agenda.

I would have thought it didn’t

[AmuseBish]

By "fully transitioned" you mean hormones and "bottom surgery"? Or anything else?

I don't think people are really allowed to collect data on that. A lot of places you can't even collect physical sex.

[Babdoc]

OP, it’s pretty much irrelevant for two reasons.
Firstly, only a tiny percentage of them have “transitioned” - most aren’t even taking hormones, let alone having surgery.
Secondly, if confronted by a man when you are undressed and vulnerable in a female changing room, you aren’t going to ask him if he still has male genitalia and a normal testosterone level, are you? And even if you could, it’s rather too late to try and escape if you get the “wrong” answer.
Of the trans identifying men in prison, a higher percentage of them are in for sex offences than the average male prisoner population, so it’s best to regard any man in a female space as a potential threat.

[Clymene]

What do you mean by fully transitioned?

Lauren Jeska has a complete orchiectomy (testicles removed) and then 16 years later into a car armed with a bag of knives and drove several hundred miles to go on an stabbing frenzy at U.K. Althetics when they told him he needed to have blood tests to prove he was eligible to compete in women's running races.

Obviously he is just one person but that is a very male reaction.

[LittleBlueBrioTrain]

Taking female hormones causes irreversible changes to the testicles within about 6-12 weeks (they shrink in size by about half, stop producing semen etc.) so it would make sense for testosterone driven behaviours to reduce/cease.

That said, all the trans women I know (several) weren't aggressive or in any way a threat to women before they began transitioning, never mind after.

[Gettingbysomehow]

MYbe there is some data on eunuchs somewhere. They were very popular at one time.

[Apollo441]

Tell your relative that 90% of transwomen have no surgery and take no hormones. Ask him to explain exactly how they are women.

[Chamomileteaplease]

I suppose this is part of the problem. What exactly is a transwoman? Does it cover anything from man in a dress to man who has had hormones and bottom surgery?

It's too large a spectrum to have meaningful discourse.

[zibzibara]

Getting his dick and balls chopped off didn't stop Dana Rivers from murdering a family in cold blood.

[MissLucyEyelesbarrow]

@Gettingbysomehow

MYbe there is some data on eunuchs somewhere. They were very popular at one time.

I doubt there is reliable data on this but, even if there were, most eunuchs of the relatively recent past were castrated pre-puberty (to preserve their singing voices) so would not necessarily be informative as to the behaviour of post-op TW.

[SavvyWavvy]

There have been studies and they show that trans women retain male patterns of behaviour, including violent crime.

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/default/

[Allthegoodnamesarechosen]

Most of those in the public sphere seem to be very angry most of the time. So it doesn’t appear to make much difference.

[Soontobe60]

@LittleBlueBrioTrain

Taking female hormones causes irreversible changes to the testicles within about 6-12 weeks (they shrink in size by about half, stop producing semen etc.) so it would make sense for testosterone driven behaviours to reduce/cease.

That said, all the trans women I know (several) weren't aggressive or in any way a threat to women before they began transitioning, never mind after.

Interestingly, not one man that I have known well in my life has been aggressive or in any way a threat to women. But I sure as hell know that every person who has raped is male!

[FrontEnd]

I was going to post same link as @SavvyWavvy ... there are also more GRA documents relating to this including expert witness discussion/opinion on why violence/sex crime rates of the mtf self-identifying population housed in women's prisons are so atrociously high.

[Soontobe60]

This delightful TW, both a murderer and a sex offender who attempted to rape a shop assistant, said he did it because he wanted to get surgery for free in prison.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5440153/Trans-convict-invited-speak-House-Lords.html

[SkaterBrained]

I think that attempting to study the small group of TW who have all the surgery and are genuinely dysphoric would be tricky. It wouldn't make sense to compare them to the wider male population as there are other factors at play (sexuality, trauma, socialisation). Do we even know if there is a difference, by sexuality, in levels of violence perpetration?

I don't think the current climate would allow researchers to separate the fully transitioned from the intact or even TW attracted to men, from those attracted to women (or themselves as women) - unless the more vulnerable group could be used as a Trojan horse for the others.

[PurpleBugz]

I can't quote the study but I learned this here so hopefully someone else can:

There is higher incidence of violent crime or maybe it was sexual violent crime among trans women (or maybe it was transgender?) than men.

There was also a study showing there is a higher incidence of suicide among those post transition than before transition. With much more robust research methods than the study saying the opposite which didn't have long enough follow up periods.

Think I will start myself a note with all the links so I can actually link in future

[Chamomileteaplease]

Thank you everyone. And especially for that GRA link. Very useful and interesting.

Shame we have to be armed with this information just to argue what should be common sense.

[PurpleBugz]

“MtF transitioners were over 6 times more likely to be convicted of an offence than female comparators and 18 times is more likely to be convicted of a violent offence. The group had no statistically significant differences from other natal males, for convictions in general, or for violent offending. The groups examined were those committed to Surgery, and so more tightly defined then a population based solely on self- declaration”

From the study linked earlier

[PurpleBugz]

Same study shows female to male transitioners adopt male pattern offending

[PurpleBugz]

44% of male-to-female transgender inmates are behind bars for sexual offences.
The vast majority, 85%, were convicted of violent crimes that caused death “or serious harm” to their victims (58% of whom were children or women).

The study also found that 70% of the trans offenders with sex crime jackets were themselves the victims of childhood abuse.

Sample size was 99.


The study — entitled Gender Diverse Offenders with a History of Sexual Offending

[Shelefttheweb]

The latest census also found men who identified as women were five times more likely than other men to have been incarcerated for sex offences at the time of the census.

Plus studies have found increased violence in sex offenders who were ‘chemically castrated’ (given puberty blockers) in USA. Inability to rape women with their penis made them more likely to penetrate them with instruments or attack them more violent generally

[Shelefttheweb]

@PurpleBugz

44% of male-to-female transgender inmates are behind bars for sexual offences.
The vast majority, 85%, were convicted of violent crimes that caused death “or serious harm” to their victims (58% of whom were children or women).

The study also found that 70% of the trans offenders with sex crime jackets were themselves the victims of childhood abuse.

Sample size was 99.


The study — entitled Gender Diverse Offenders with a History of Sexual Offending

We need to be accurate - I presume this refers to the population behind bars not the whole population. So 44% of those behind bars.

[PurpleBugz]

@Shelefttheweb

Yes. It's in my quote "transgender inmates". So not all transgender people