Carrie Grant: I no longer have three daughters.

[MalagaNights]

Has anyone read this today?

I'm not sure what to think. They have obviously had such a terrible time with their daughters mental health needs, 2 of them are autistic and all three identify as Trans.

Carrie accepts this as part of 'who they are' which in some ways is understandable as they obviously hope this will relieve ongoing mental health difficulties.

They also have an adopted son who required security guards at home because he was so violent.

So they've obviously been through so much and just want their children to be stable and happy.

But there seems to be many unspoken questions this pattern of all 3 girls being Trans raises.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-12104609/Carrie-David-Grants-soul-baring-account-parenting.html

[Parisj]

Not unusual where families are dealing with neurodivergence and or attachment issues, and fits theories of social contagion / reinforcement factors of social transition.

[CouldIHaveThatInEnglishPlease]

If you didn’t know who the parents were, and didn’t already think they were nice people just trying their best, and you read a thread on here about a neighbours cousins family where there were 4 children who all have such severe mental health issues (outbursts, child on parent abuse where the parents has required a hospital stay and suicide attempts) and such low self esteem (all trans/non binary) you would wonder how awful their childhood would have been.

[holaholiday]

I read the times magazine article on them the other week and likewise I was thinking ??!!!especially as they went on to adopt another child with even more severe needs…I don’t know why they didn’t consider their own birth children’s needs before they went on to adopt another.

[Shelefttheweb]

They ‘sell’ their family, using their children to maintain a public profile. I can see the attraction of going along with trans for them, and why when one chid is given extra attention for this it becomes even more attractive to the others.
But three children with severe mental health difficulties and one so violent as to have guards suggests they have not meet their children’s needs as well as they think they have.

[RedToothBrush]

Three girls. Some with problems they aren't really coping with. This isn't enough. So they adopt a boy. Not a girl. A boy. Who brings violence to the family. Daughters are autistic and not coping.

It's like a tick box exercise in things you'd expect to find in a family like this... And not in a good way.

[Brisland]

I am positive this family is cyclically in the media - a bigger story/update comes out regularly with new updates.

I only hope all 4 children and parents are receiving the appropriate mental health care.

[OriginalUsername2]

It’s statistically impossible.

[DysonSpheres]

@OriginalUsername2

It’s statistically impossible.

Even if they are all neurodivergent?

Social contagion, but in a bubble.

[BonfireLady]

That's yet another remarkably good piece of journalism from the Daily Mail.

When I think of my own gender-questioning autistic daughter, who has (and occasionally still does) turned her violence against me, there is a lot that resonates. I've also needed to have training (though thankfully it's not defensive, as we haven't needed that, it's physical de-escalation) and have also been very hands off when it comes to my daughter's gender identity.

There are two huge fundamental differences though. I was hands on with safeguarding her from unconditional bias (I've put our story in a few threads now so apologies to everyone who is bored of seeing it now 🤦‍♀️) and also hands on with a differential diagnosis approach. I don't recall them ever doing that in all the things that the have said.

I looked at what was causing her trauma, without attributing it all to gender identity. Like many autistic girls who struggle with change and sensory issues, she was angry at her changing body (breasts and periods).

I'm reminded of another current thread here too. Carrie and David come from the kind of therapeutic practice background that is being discussed on it.

Our story

The related thread - psychotherapy practice

[Whatsnewpussyhat]

No. She still has and will always have 3 daughters.

Social contagion bubble is very apt.

Pretending they are now boys is not the healthy way to deal with their poor mental health and emotional distress. It's like sticking a plaster on a severed artery.
It may help temporarily but won't resolve the issues.

[Mollyollydolly]

I don't know the details, so many unanswered questions.

What I'm sure about is plastering their children all over the media doesn't help them.

I'm also sure if they lived in a flat in Salford and didn't have a pot to piss in the attitude to them from the great and the good would be very different.

Makes me feel very uncomfortable and having heard a few interviews with them this week no-one seems to want to ask the challenging questions like 'Why?" I suppose it's difficult if you're interviewing someone about their personal family issues rather than the broader questions about wtf is actually going on here.

I wouldn't want a book about parenting by them.

[Messyhair321]

Actually I have a similar situation, preparing to be flamed...my DC (actually 30 y/o) was very unwell with an eating disorder for many years, most people don't know unless they have experienced this at its worst, how much it destroys people and families. This went on for many years, we were in and out of hospital, ED units, near death several times.

And so then after 10 years of this, my then DD decides that she wishes to live as a man, unsupported by anyone but us and the GP we decided we had to do this, because in any case things were so bad it literally could not get any worse.

So actually this was several years ago, and I am sure that this transition saved his life actually. Its easy to judge but when you are a parent and are in it, you would do anything to help your child survive.
Current situation, things are good

[Messyhair321]

*also no autism diagnosis

[FrownedUpon]

I can’t really say what I think about this family. She seems to be proud of the labels they’ve collected for their children along the way. It’s bizarre & unhealthy. The last thing the children need after a disastrous upbringing is for their personal needs to be reported all over the media. Absolutely atrocious parenting all round.

[Clymene]

I know from personal experience that she is a deeply unpleasant person. They've been exploring their poor kids for cash for years - no better than the the Saccone Jolys.

[Justme56]

I find it very confusing with the headline photo as 2 present very much as girls. Has anyone even asked why they started saying they were boys upon the arrival of the adopted son? It would be one of the first questions I’d ask if it was one of my children. Why would you adopt a fourth child if you had 3 with a range of significant issues. I remember reading that one couldn’t cope in a school for autistic children (after being excluded from main stream). According to Carrie this resulted in them having PTSD on top of everything else. Goodness knows how she had time to jet round the world and write books with all this going on.

[SockGoddess]

I don't know what has caused the problems and I don't feel I should judge as I have a DC who's having some issues, and it can be complex. Plenty of non-terrible parents are dealing with the effects of contagious gender ideology. And an adopted child is quite likely to have attachment problems and challenging behaviour - I know a couple who are hoping to adopt and they are doing a mandatory course where they hear about all the potential problems and the reasons for them, and it's hair-raising and distressing.

But going public with it as a story with the kids pictured and named - I think that's a really bad idea and that's what makes me question their parenting (and to an extent the DM's responsibility on this too). If your children have MH problems then it's really not fair for them to be documented in public for all time, even if they are adults - their parents should try to protect their privacy. For one thing it makes it harder to row back on your gender identity if you come to that point.

[BonfireLady]

@Messyhair321

Actually I have a similar situation, preparing to be flamed...my DC (actually 30 y/o) was very unwell with an eating disorder for many years, most people don't know unless they have experienced this at its worst, how much it destroys people and families. This went on for many years, we were in and out of hospital, ED units, near death several times.

And so then after 10 years of this, my then DD decides that she wishes to live as a man, unsupported by anyone but us and the GP we decided we had to do this, because in any case things were so bad it literally could not get any worse.

So actually this was several years ago, and I am sure that this transition saved his life actually. Its easy to judge but when you are a parent and are in it, you would do anything to help your child survive.
Current situation, things are good

I have heard similar stories. It's very difficult for people to appreciate how complex things can be, especially over a prolonged period of time.

I won't comment on your situation as I don't know it. I have plenty of experience reading about co-morbiditities with gender identity, including eating disorders. I have a fixed opinion but I don't know your own situation.

I still firmly believe that physical transition is a very last resort for a very small minority of people, of whom a very very small minority will be biologically female. I'm not in a position to know or judge whether your (adult) child is within that number or not. Obviously I have my own cynicism when it comes to the chances of all the people I come across - in real life or online - being in that small number. But someone is.

The Hannah Barnes book handles this subject really well I think.

None of that stops me empathising with the pain and difficulty you must have felt along the way. Lots of people simply won't have that perspective. Many will empathise, even if they don't, but some will also judge on all of it. I have a huge empathy for Carrie and David Grant but I've seen enough of their story over recent months to say that I do judge them for their parenting role on this one regarding their children's gender identity. All 3 girls.... No.

[CouldIHaveThatInEnglishPlease]

@Messyhair321

Actually I have a similar situation, preparing to be flamed...my DC (actually 30 y/o) was very unwell with an eating disorder for many years, most people don't know unless they have experienced this at its worst, how much it destroys people and families. This went on for many years, we were in and out of hospital, ED units, near death several times.

And so then after 10 years of this, my then DD decides that she wishes to live as a man, unsupported by anyone but us and the GP we decided we had to do this, because in any case things were so bad it literally could not get any worse.

So actually this was several years ago, and I am sure that this transition saved his life actually. Its easy to judge but when you are a parent and are in it, you would do anything to help your child survive.
Current situation, things are good

I have huge empathy for parents who are trying to navigate life with children with any form of mental health issue (including eating disorders and gender dysmorphia). As a secondary school teacher I see these issues day in, day out, a lot of it linked to peers, puberty and social media etc, and I see how hard it can be and how you just do whatever you can to make it through.
but to have 4 children who ALL have severe mental health issues, you do have to begin to question whether the problem lies in the home, because that is not normal. Something has gone very very wrong.

[Nonylonneeded]

I appreciate their honesty about parenting a violent child and wonder how you go about getting three burly security guards to sit on the sofa to intervene if things go pear shaped. Who provides the burly men , is this a thing ? 🤔
And now he’s in a residential home for children with such issues, is this a privilege for the rich only? have they paid for it , or how does one access such a thing? Genuine questions.
Anyone have experience of such a place , ie a situation where a kid goes to have specialist intervention that is not a foster home/ typical children’s home? A place where staff have experience of dealing with children / teens who need monitoring more closely than typical ‘being in care’ type scenario?

[Nonylonneeded]

To elaborate on that I just watched ‘kids’ on channel 4 about children in care , and it seems the care homes may solve some issues but the children are then immersed in an environment with other children with a myriad of issues, and are effectively released at 18 having had a pretty fucked up existence in residential care that looked almost as chaotic as the homes they were removed from. So the residential care that the Grants child has is presumably more specialist, more secure and potentially a shorter more targeted approach to acute issues? Respite for parents and intervention for the child ? Is this an option for ordinary people?

[BonfireLady]

So the residential care that the Grants child has is presumably more specialist, more secure and potentially a shorter more targeted approach to acute issues? Respite for parents and intervention for the child ? Is this an option for ordinary people?

This can be secured under an EHCP (Education and Health Care Plan). It is at the most extreme end of funding. Anyone who knows the EHCP process will immediately know how difficult this particular battle would be. Order of funding/difficulty would be roughly:

1. extra funding for education and safeguarding (for child and other children) in mainstream school
   
2. as above in special needs school
   
3. as above in residential school
   
4. as above in high security residential school
   
   Because of his age, it will be tied to his education. All children are legally entitled to an education. Hence the (horrendous and slow) EHCP process.
   
   Or if you're very rich, you could pay for it.

[Nonylonneeded]

I see @BonfireLady thanks for the clarification. So really if the child ‘masks’ at school , this kind of help would be next to impossible to access?

[Nonylonneeded]

How about the burly sofa security blokes? 🤔I just cannot imagine how this comes about? Surely in the first instance you’d be offered some sort of ‘support worker’ who would almost definitely not be a burly bloke , let alone three at once?

[BonfireLady]

@Nonylonneeded

I see @BonfireLady thanks for the clarification. So really if the child ‘masks’ at school , this kind of help would be next to impossible to access?

Yep. "Thankfully" our daughter had explosive autistic meltdowns at school. Even then, it's an incredibly drawn out and difficult process. We got refused, had to appeal, mediation etc etc. And throughout all that time you're trying to understand your child's actual needs. It's a process that is full of lots of circular references. I'm just incredibly grateful that we weren't going through the initial stages of the process at the same time as her gender-questioning, the severe bullying and her mental health crisis.
Local authorities know that most people will give up.

Athough you can pay your way to fast track the provision (if you've got the means) most, if not all, residential schools will only let someone in if they have an EHCP. You can pay for some of the professional reports that are in it but that all still takes time. Without the EHCP, the specialist provision is unable to give the right kind of specialist provision. Needs and the provisions that meet them have to be carefully understood and documented.

The Grant family will have had to go through all of that, regardless of their wealth. Probably 4 times, given the other 3 children also have special needs.