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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Carrie Grant: I no longer have three daughters.

106 replies

MalagaNights · 20/05/2023 09:09

Has anyone read this today?

I'm not sure what to think. They have obviously had such a terrible time with their daughters mental health needs, 2 of them are autistic and all three identify as Trans.

Carrie accepts this as part of 'who they are' which in some ways is understandable as they obviously hope this will relieve ongoing mental health difficulties.

They also have an adopted son who required security guards at home because he was so violent.

So they've obviously been through so much and just want their children to be stable and happy.

But there seems to be many unspoken questions this pattern of all 3 girls being Trans raises.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-12104609/Carrie-David-Grants-soul-baring-account-parenting.html

Carrie and David Grant's soul-baring account of parenting

Where once this couple had three daughters, now they have Olive, who is non-binary (and prefers to be known as 'they'); Tylan (who uses 'he/him' pronouns), and Arlo ('he/they').

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-12104609/Carrie-David-Grants-soul-baring-account-parenting.html

OP posts:
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Whatsnewpussyhat · 20/05/2023 22:29

And was the adoption of the very troubled little boy the root cause of the transing of the three girls

I bet it played a huge part in it.

GeriKellmansUpdo · 20/05/2023 22:40

What the hell did I just read?

ArcticSkewer · 21/05/2023 06:32

MajesticWhine · 20/05/2023 20:53

The one that had top surgery is 21, so would not need parental consent.
It's a troubling story. What makes it so impossible for these girls to exist as girls? And was the adoption of the very troubled little boy the root cause of the transing of the three girls.
I wish them all well, but I won't be reading the parenting book.

They wrote a parenting book?

Wow. That's a real lack of self awareness!

Slothtoes · 21/05/2023 08:34

None of us will ever know what the Grant’s daughters may have said and to which professionals, or how that was handled or what their parents were advised to say in response , given that they are now young adults. In recent years even less was known about autistic girls and gender identity than it is now.

I think parents have been equally as hoodwinked by the lobby groups as the professionals have been. I do blame the professionals for abandoning their professional critical thinking but I have a lot of sympathy for worried parents trying to navigate this.

Slothtoes · 21/05/2023 08:37

MalagaNights excellent post. That sounds plausible.
It just looks like an impossible tightrope for parents to walk though and all autistic kids are different. I’m uncomfortable with the tone on this thread of criticism of these or any parents in what sounds like a bloody impossible situation around gender identity- if whether they support the transition or don’t, of their autistic child/ren.

Some parents don’t or can’t read too much into the risks and inevitable harms of social and medical transition and will see transition encouraged by the professionals, any peer group the child has, etc. They will see it as a solution and parents will think they are doing the right thing by supporting (or not objecting). Particularly as the social and professional tide is only turning very slowly on this issue. Or more likely maybe as professional practice might be just suspended in a bit of a holding pattern with the Cass report thankfully on its way, but not yet arrived and updating guidance.

Other parents might have read into the issues and be bloody terrified for their kids yet still feel they have to go along with it all.

None of us will know what the Grant’s daughters may have said and to which professionals, or how that was handled or what their parents were advised to say in response , given that they are now young adult age. In recent years even less was known about autistic girls and gender identity than it is now.

I think parents have been equally as hoodwinked by the lobby groups as the professionals have been. I blame the professionals but I have a lot of sympathy for parents.

Slothtoes · 21/05/2023 08:39

BonfireLady’s clear-eyed approach is brilliant and her holding the line with professionals is absolutely great. Thank you Flowers Her having those high level conversations at the top of the service will help other parents and professionals in her area to hold the line that ‘puberty distress in an autistic girl should not be conflated with gender identity confusion. Both need to be managed separately’. As she puts it in a perfect nutshell in that excellent blog post linked above.

Hopefully this good practice will be shared nationally and internationally.

Pickledmeg · 21/05/2023 08:49

I find it worrying that anyone can publish a book like this, it sounds like rather than being a memoir or whatever it's to give advice and guidance to parents. They're not professionals and although it sounds unfair to say- hardly shining examples. Cripes.

It is a fact, though, that their three girls decided they wanted to become boys (or non-binary) after they had adopted their son.

That's telling, at least now he is somewhere he can recieve the support he needs.

LizzieSiddal · 21/05/2023 08:57

I feel so sorry for those three girls.

fairydust11 · 21/05/2023 08:58

MalagaNights · 20/05/2023 19:37

I have sympathy and understanding with them, that like @Messyhair321 if you have a child with severe mental health difficulties being Trans might seem like the least of your issues or even a relief if it seems to help.

But I'm also thinking about the social environment & type of parenting approaches that might lead 3 of your children to become Trans.

I'm increasingly thinking about how the parenting culture is more child led, focused on child voice, encouraging expression and finding your real self unencumbered by expectation, & parents accepting whatever this is. As if this is positive.

I suspect Carrie is this type of person. Even her Christianity is the radical unconditional love type.

But what does this do to children? In terms of their mental health which Trans occurs as a symptom of?

When children don't have expectations set for their behaviour and the roles they should play across their life, but they are encouraged to create this sense of who they are from their feelings without any constraint, what does this do?

It requires extensive focus & rumination on the self and attending to all feelings as important indicators. From this you have to create who you 'really' are. All feelings are validated as if they are reasonable and real and decisions are made on these passing feelings.

I think this creates an unboundaried open ended array of decisions and possibilities for young people and this in itself creates anxiety and to being overwhelmed by life.

Young people need adults who communicate an order to the world: roles you should play, your place in the world, how you should be in them, things they value, that some ways of living are better than others, the type of life they envision for you.

This then provides a structure within which to explore yourself. For some the boundaries placed will be too restrictive and we need to find ways to include those people but if we had clearer boundaries I think there would be fewer of those people.

Carrie Grant's family has made me think about how we are creating a mental health crisis as much as anything.

Of course parents can't isolate their children from the culture and any child is susceptible to these identity absorptions which undermine mental health.

I just think those children who have parents who throughout those difficulties still maintain some boundaries for them to push against: no your are not my son, no you can't change sex, I won't say things that aren't true, I don't think this is a good thing, have a much better chance of finding a way out of the ideology than those who go total full support.

I wonder if what Carrie has done here is an abdication of the parental boundaries needed over time. And in my opinion she continues to seem to be doing it.

I completely agree with your well thought post.

I remember Carrie & David from fame academy, their children were only young then - after reading their article, I find the whole situation unbelievably sad on many levels.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 21/05/2023 09:42

I have no opinion of their parenting ability either way. I do question their judgment and there's also the question why social services approved them to adopt a fourth child given the challenges they already faced. Maybe it's their self confidence and success at presenting themselves positively to the outside world, maybe it's the shortage of mixed raced couples willing to adopt, maybe social services didn't have so much awareness of the needs of the older girls.

Having said that, all the siblings in a family medically transitioning is not just for wealthy media couples who adopt. It's already happening in some "ordinary" families in the US and I'm afraid it's likely to happen increasingly here too.

BonfireLady · 21/05/2023 17:14

It's already happening in some "ordinary" families in the US

That's interesting (and worrying). Are you aware of any trusted sources that explore this @AmaryllisNightAndDay? I appreciate it's difficult to know what can be a trusted source but good (ideally mainstream) journalism tends to be a reliable start point, where they verify sources.

@Slothtoes thank you for your lovely and supportive comments on my daughter's and my journey.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 21/05/2023 17:43

Hi @BonfireLady I'm sorry, that US info is personal and not from news media or research so I don't have a verifiable source. I haven't seen it reported on. And yes I know anyone here could say that! But I found it deeply scary.

You might be able to find something better from Genspect?

IsItUs · 21/05/2023 17:56

I have sympathy for them, and what parent really isn't doing the best they can. Very few.
I've met both the Grants - I don't know them. What I will say is that I was so impressed by them, I remember their kindness to this day. It stuck with me. Other celebrities were at the event but the Grants stood out for my family. A snapshot maybe but they went above and beyond with no press around or benefit to themselves.
None of parenting comes with a manual that fits every scenario. A family can have more than one neurodiverse child, and I'm sure it can get really complicated.

BonfireLady · 21/05/2023 20:38

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 21/05/2023 17:43

Hi @BonfireLady I'm sorry, that US info is personal and not from news media or research so I don't have a verifiable source. I haven't seen it reported on. And yes I know anyone here could say that! But I found it deeply scary.

You might be able to find something better from Genspect?

No problem at all. I'll take a look an see if there is anything there.

The Grants' story is particularly interesting for me because of autism and gender conflating, not just once but 3 times. When I saw your comment I wondered if the same pattern (with autism as a factor) might also be seen in other households where multiple children have a gender identity that differs from their biological sex. Autism often runs in families, so there could well be a pattern, if there is a large enough prevalence of it.

I remember seeing an appallingly biased study in to autism and gender identity (Cambridge University) which started with a premise that it is simply a fact that it is true that the two co-exist. They never looked at why they co-exist. Instead it went on to look at the lack of accommodations in health care for autistic people with a gender identity that differed from biological sex.

I'm really hoping that someone in the mental health community is intrigued enough by patterns such as the Grants' case to interrogate this kind of thing through a totally neutral lens. To ask some questions about why, not just accept it as a fact. When someone knows enough about how autism presents in girls, the coincidence of it all just doesn't add up.

littlbrowndog · 21/05/2023 20:43

For all us cared for children. Don’t put us in media

fucking idiots. Just fuck off with your book and betrayal of your children

Shelefttheweb · 21/05/2023 20:52

I remember seeing an appallingly biased study in to autism and gender identity (Cambridge University) which started with a premise that it is simply a fact that it is true that the two co-exist. They never looked at why they co-exist. Instead it went on to look at the lack of accommodations in health care for autistic people with a gender identity that differed from biological sex.

I remember seeing a survey a large autistic Facebook page (possibly ‘autistic not weird’?) did surrounding language a few years ago. Again very biased and recruiting from a community that strongly policed language. That also started with a section on gender identity and a blurb about TWAW no debate. There weren’t academics behind that survey but I have seen it used since to justify silencing anyone who preferred to call themselves ‘aspie’ or ‘with autism’. So I am not surprised but rather depressed if Cambridge University are doing this. But then again the whole autism research field is now so toxic it is driving young researchers away.

TastesLikeStrawberriesOnASummerEvening · 21/05/2023 21:33

I had a violent child, I wasn't even believed, never mind the rest.

They are almost celebrating how great it is that their kids are fucked up.
Ugh.

BonfireLady · 21/05/2023 21:46

Shelefttheweb · 21/05/2023 20:52

I remember seeing an appallingly biased study in to autism and gender identity (Cambridge University) which started with a premise that it is simply a fact that it is true that the two co-exist. They never looked at why they co-exist. Instead it went on to look at the lack of accommodations in health care for autistic people with a gender identity that differed from biological sex.

I remember seeing a survey a large autistic Facebook page (possibly ‘autistic not weird’?) did surrounding language a few years ago. Again very biased and recruiting from a community that strongly policed language. That also started with a section on gender identity and a blurb about TWAW no debate. There weren’t academics behind that survey but I have seen it used since to justify silencing anyone who preferred to call themselves ‘aspie’ or ‘with autism’. So I am not surprised but rather depressed if Cambridge University are doing this. But then again the whole autism research field is now so toxic it is driving young researchers away.

This is the one I'm thinking of. It's been a long time since I was at university (and I only did a BSc) but even to me, it's so clearly unbelievably bad research. Ignoring the background colours, you only need to read the first few paragraphs to see the biased flaws in its starting premise.

.Cambridge University study

Transgender and gender-diverse individuals are more likely to be autistic and report higher autistic traits

Transgender and gender-diverse adults are three to six times more likely as cisgender adults (individuals whose gender identity corresponds to their sex

https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/transgender-and-gender-diverse-individuals-are-more-likely-to-be-autistic-and-report-higher-autistic

PermanentTemporary · 21/05/2023 22:07

Wow. That study puts the transgender group together without defining which sex they are. Literally in the section where they are comparing their scores with boys and girls who aren't transgender.

Do you suppose they considered doing that? Or do they genuinely think that having a gender identity overrides sex in absolutely all circumstances to the point where your research participants don't have a sex at all?

literalviolence · 21/05/2023 22:16

DemiColon · 20/05/2023 20:15

I think this is a very insightful post.

I have in the past noticed that a lot of kids who have these difficulties around gender seem to have parents who were very proactive about flouting any gender-norms in their parenting.

Sometimes that seems rather backwatds, if gender expectations lead to kids trying to escape them - which is why some seem to think that we will get over gender ideology by getting rid of cultural elements of gender.

But actually that doesn't seem to be the pattern in many cases. It's more like lack of cultural gender markers in their lives leaves kids without the ability to build a mental picture of sex, and how it relates to culture, and the eventual ability to see where that's an artificiality or arbitrary.

I'm not sure that's what I've seen. More likely that parents who have more rigid sense of what men and women should do are more likely to have kids who identify against their biological sex. That said, some of the people who most purport to flout gender norms are the ones most obsessed with them. It's like they can't just quietly say 'no' to them, like many people are - it needs to be more performative. Which perhaps gives away something else about them which is maybe a need to impress or to have public acknowledgement of their cleverness/ superiority. Or they're just homophobic. I've not seen anything to suggest Carrie and David are homophobic though. Being neurodiverse does not necessarily mean you develop the level of problems which their children have which does make one wonder whether something was not really working well in their family.

LeilaRose777 · 21/05/2023 22:19

They're vile: violating their children's privacy and monetising their mental health issues. Why they think they're in any position to advise others about parenting is inexplicable.

PurpleChrayne · 21/05/2023 22:25

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Runningcrew · 21/05/2023 22:27

Clymene · 20/05/2023 12:33

I know from personal experience that she is a deeply unpleasant person. They've been exploring their poor kids for cash for years - no better than the the Saccone Jolys.

Wow really? I think a lot of people who adopt do it for extremely self serving reasons such as to look good in their community so in a way this doesn’t surprise me. Their son may have thrived in another Home. Sounds like they weren’t cut out for his needs. And now he doesn’t even live with them anyway. And I also am surprised to see they had burly security guards in their home. Agree with pp that this seems to be a rich privilege thing.

BonfireLady · 21/05/2023 22:32

Do you suppose they considered doing that? Or do they genuinely think that having a gender identity overrides sex in absolutely all circumstances to the point where your research participants don't have a sex at all?

An excellent question. No idea.
I was pointed towards this article by a well meaning person in the very early days of me trying to get my head around it all. I said I couldn't really find anything about gender identity and autism but I wanted to understand more because, certainly in my daughter's case, it felt like two things were being muddled together. When I read this I was totally flabbergasted and had no idea where to turn at that point. I couldn't understand how the "finest minds" in the UK (Oxbridge) could do such a flawed piece of work. Suffice to say I kept digging and digging after that. It's such a woefully researched part of the whole mix, especially when you consider the proportion of all children who present with gender dysphoria being autistic (48% according to the research done by two clinicians at the Tavistock)... and hardly anyone asking why.

Shelefttheweb · 21/05/2023 23:25

BonfireLady · 21/05/2023 21:46

This is the one I'm thinking of. It's been a long time since I was at university (and I only did a BSc) but even to me, it's so clearly unbelievably bad research. Ignoring the background colours, you only need to read the first few paragraphs to see the biased flaws in its starting premise.

.Cambridge University study

Ah, printed in Nature….
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-17794-1

Where to begin? And as mentioned, they don’t break down transgender and gender diverse by sex. The principal bias is the implied direction of effect - transgender people who are autistic, never autistic people or people with mental health difficulties who are transgender. But also noted this:

However, this association with gender identity is not specific to autism. In two datasets, transgender and gender-diverse individuals also had elevated rates of ADHD, bipolar disorder, depression, OCD, learning disorders, and schizophrenia compared to cisgender individuals.

In the discussion it has the usual trope that psychiatric conditions must be because transgender individuals are marginalised and illtreated, rather than untreated psychiatric conditions may cause disassociation with ones sex. Of course they can’t suggest the later because they have taken transgender out of DSM…

Elevated rates of autism, other neurodevelopmental and psychiatric diagnoses, and autistic traits in transgender and gender-diverse individuals - Nature Communications

It is unclear if rates of autism and other neurodevelopmental and psychiatric diagnoses are elevated in transgender and gender-diverse individuals compared to cisgender individuals. Here, the authors use data from five different large-scale datasets to...

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-17794-1