Caitlyn Jenner's new campaign against "gender extremists"

[BonfireLady]

Apologies if this is a duplicate thread but I don't think I've seen it elsewhere.

Caitlyn Jenner has launched a new political action committee to protect children from the (pull towards a pathway of medicalisation for life and sterilisation) impact of gender identity belief and to protect the integrity of women's sports. It's targeted at exposing and stopping the influence of gender belief extremists, not the every day lives of transgender people.

She's receiving both support and criticism.

"I don't want to be a trans activist," Jenner responded "I gave millions and millions of dollars away in philanthropy to LGBT organizations. I want to be a trans example not an activist. Live your life however, you want that's the beautiful thing about this country."

It's great to see her stepping up as a role model for safety, fairness and boundaries.

Article in Newsweek

Mmn.

There is definitely much ground between those like D Hayton and M Yardley who originally chose the word transsexual for themselves in conversation (and like homosexual people were told this was old hat and they were now called x), and for whom the EqA gender reassignment protections were for.

I would not be surprised at the moment as this political movement heads towards implosion that Jenner and others would like to put clear water between themselves and the extremist political lobby, but I'm afraid that cynically, from experience, it tends to be a wish that when women's rights are re instated and protected from the extremist politics that an exemption is still made for this original group. It is almost always self interested, and always still wants some female things removed from females to benefit male people who identify as women. I hope I am proven wrong, it's something it would be lovely to be wrong about.

The time for trying to make these distinctions was about seven years ago.

Agreed nilsmousehammer. I get a sense of "Haul up the ladder Jack".

Hmmm. He doesn’t think it’s unfair for women to have men in their bathrooms though. It’s all attention with him, no time for him at all.

Can you imagine how awful it is for them? They thought they were going to be the only special ones but now they find other men in the women’s toilets/on the race track/in the changing rooms. They can clearly see they are men and it undermines the pretence that they are women now because they can’t ignore the fact they are doing the same.

They went to all that trouble and now it turns out that all they needed was a wig and some pink leggings.

I'm divided on this.

The cynic in me thinks Jenner is hoping for some kind of political career and, as others have said, wants to put clear water between themselves and the car crash that is the trans 'rights' movement.

On the other hand I think someone like Jenner is in a position to do a lot of good. Jenner cant be criticized by the other side as Jenner is a 'trans pioneer' and throwing Jenner under the bus by trying to cancel Jenner would basically split the movement in to the good and reasonable tra's and the crazies (you know, like some feminists were trying to do to Posy), which can only be a good thing as it introduces moderation and boundaries to the movement.

Once the movement accepts boundaries it may be possible to then start to have an actual conversation about how trans people can be accommodated in society without negatively impacting everyone else.

It was always the aim of some of the trans pressure groups (such as Press for Change) to blur the line between transsexual and transvestite, by calling them all 'trans'. Now some of them are trying to make the distinction again. But maybe the ones who want to make that distinction didn't get that memo.

I still don't understand why Press for Change wanted to put everyone in the same 'trans' category, when two of the best known members (Christine Burns and Stephen Whittle) are both transsexual. Why did they want to suggest to the world that they were no different from a bloke who likes to wear his wife's underwear or who gets a thrill from walking down the street in a wig, dress and heels?

Ugh. A trans example of what? How to get into women's spaces and get away with it? Yet another man defining who is or isn't allowed in women's single sex spaces. And he's using the "won't you think of the children" to get the attention he wants.
Sorry I'm done with all the boundary encroachment.
You want a dress and lipstick? Fine. Knock yourself out!
But no, don't involve youngsters and leave women's spaces alone.
Yes, even you, hand-on-shoulder Jenner.

Jenner is part of the problem not the solution.

The usefulness of Jenner lies in exposing the fact that even trans-identified people can be attacked and ostracised if they stray from the One True Dogma into the realms of Wrongthink.

The number of men identifying as women who claim it is their criteria and theirs alone which should give them access, never stops.

'Extreme transactivists' have their criteria, of course - it's anyone who wants it.

But the list is never ending, and entirely depends on who's writing it.

You have those who claim it should be based on surgery, others who say it's possession of a GRC, or forget that, it's only if you pass, or no, it's all about longevity, how long you've been trans.

They all want to violate women's boundaries, they're just jockeying for position.

Nothing new there. Remember the absurd case a few years ago of Helen Islan (not trans) taking Miranda Yardley (transsexual) to court for transphobia? (The case was thrown out because, as the judge put it: ‘There is no case and never was a case.’)

Once the movement accepts boundaries it may be possible to then start to have an actual conversation about how trans people can be accommodated in society without negatively impacting everyone else.

The movement isn't accepting established boundaries, its creating its own.

If a man or boy isnt woman or girl enough to be in female sport, why do they get to call themselves woman and girl and get to be in any female spaces and opportunities? The existing boundaries are around sex, not men and boy identities.

TRA are forcing society to negotiate established boundaries and safeguarding policies, not accepting them.

It's risible that Jenna wants to protect women sports, if that's the case. If Jenna is, and always has been, a woman, then they shouldn't have been allowed to acquire the decathlon gold medal. It was a men only event.

Jenner is male privilege inaction, picking and choosing the bits of an ideology that suit Jenner the most.

Yes!

The fact that many of these male people use female single sex spaces for themselves means that they will be a much needed voice for children, but will be on different sides of the discussion for access to female single sex spaces etc does need to be acknowledged.

I'm very much in two minds about Caitlyn Jenner too. I absolutely agree that she (I'll stick with this pronoun for consistency with my first post) does also represent views on different aspects of gender identity belief which I disagree with. For example, using women's toilets. If her political lobbying were about trans women having access to women's toilets (or "special categories of transwomen" doing this) I would push back. For starters, I wouldn't be showing my respect for a gender identity belief using the preferred she/her pronouns in that context as in order to push back, it needs to be unequivocally clear that a trans woman is a (biological) man. Otherwise it gets very muddled. Hopefully at some point she may have an epiphany on this and will start advocating for third spaces like Miranda Yardley has done.

There are many examples of people whose boundaries and beliefs I agree with in part but not whole e.g.

Buck Angel is very vocal that gender dysphoria should be treated as a mental health issue, that a therapeutic approach should be done first (with any medical intervention being a very last resort) and that no children should be given medical interventions.... 👍 While also saying that gay men should get over themselves and once they try a trans man's vagina they might realise how much they have been missing... 😡

Matt Walsh is very vocal that trans women are biological men and that biological sex is important as a distinction to underpin laws, fairness and safety.... 👍 While also supporting and advocating for traditionally stereotyped male and female roles within a family where only heterosexual parents are acceptable... 😡

So on balance, this feels like a positive stance from Caitlyn to me. She does indeed seem to crave attention (I've seen some clips of pretty car crash footage from a Channel 4 debate on gender identity from a few years ago), but if she can use this attention to ringfence and fight against two issues which are pretty clear cut (children's safety and fairness in sport), this is a good start IMO. I'll just suck up the attention craving. And I'll set aside my disagreement on the toilets issue, until or unless it comes up.

Personally i think Jenner is every bit as duplicitous as an extreme transactivist.

Jenner wants to come across as reasonable, because they have political ambition and can see the writing on the wall with regards to children and sport.

They have already undermined their own opinion with regards to sport by not giving back a man only medal. And, if I recall correctly, boasted about stealing their daughter's clothing and how worried they were they'd get caught. Got applause for it, in fact.

From where I'm sitting, it all looks like blatant self-service.

This. Good for Jenner.

I agree, he wants special exemptions but frankly a fight between the 'men can be women on their say so' and the 'tru trans - you need to jump through some hoops / get rid of your penis' brigade will only bring more sunlight.

I do have some empathy for transsexuals like Yardley who don't use women's spaces, but not for those like Jenner who do. However, as Jenner and Yardley and Hayton and all the others are finding out, that empathy evaporates quite quickly once 70 year old women are getting their skulls cracked from being punched by TRAs. You don't waste time worrying about the neighbours if your child is in a burning building.

Jenner has influence and money and I think this is a good thing overall.

Great, we've got a new "ally" to praise have we? A man who tried on his daughter's clothes behind their backs.

You are forgetting the ‘Q’ attaching itself to LBGT which exists to dismantle boundaries.

I can if they can keep the debate going and keep the issues in the headlines and push for legislation that’s great. If it’s spearheaded by a transwoman then people can’t say it’s transphobic. Obviously some will anyway as CJ is the wrong trans apparently, but it’s harder to.

That doesn’t mean I like or support CJ. He’s a man and a TW though so people will listen to him.

Yep.

You are forgetting the ‘Q’ attaching itself to LBGT which exists to dismantle boundaries.

T isn't distinct from Q, its only a subset. The T was a foot in the door for Q.

I think it’s a good thing that a very famous trans person is taking such a strong stance on the protection of women’s sports and the prevention of medical transition of children. The more people speaking up for these aims the better.

That I disagree with them on other things (like which toilet they should use) doesn’t detract from the value of the publicity they will bring to these particular issues.