Gender theory and religious beliefs

[Parisite]

I'm wonder how much to make of the fact that the former head of Stonewall is a practising Catholic.

Somebody who thinks you can have a 'true' inner gender identity that is at odds with your body... belonging to a religion that talks about an invisible soul as the seat of true identity, in tension with the body.

Are people from faiths that believe in a soul (eg Catholics, New Agers) more likely to believe gender theory, because they're used to thinking the 'authentic' self isn't their body?

Thoughts sparked by this article, which questions the idea that people have an inner 'True Self' at odds with everyday, embodied life:

https://www.flaneurnotes.com/post/on-not-having-a-true-self

Oh my goodness, what a brilliant podcast. Very relevant to this whole thread, and dovetails with the blog article I referenced in my original post.

Towards the end there's a digression about Trump and Brexit that I wasn't convinced by. But even that bit I found thought-provoking.

How about doing a new post linking to the Kingsnorth podcast, and briefly saying why you think it's so good (obviously only if nobody else has done this)? So many people here will find it helpful.

Scrollingleaves, you feel what you feel and that is that!

Am I correct that what you are asking me is whether or not the soul is genderless/sexless (from a Catholic perspective)?

I've been pondering the answer to this question for 24 hours now and I haven't found a moment just yet to formulate my response!

I will get back to you; until then enjoy your day!

@liwoxac it's a shame (for me) that you don't want a long discussion because I would very much enjoy that! However, I will respect your wishes.

I hope this isn't coming across as me trying to have the last word, I just wanted to thank you for your considered response and wish you a wonderful day. 🙏

Well I'd like to hear your response.

Thanks @MaterDei. You have a good day too. I'm sorry I'm busy now for a while.

Meanwhile would it be blasphemous, or just sacriligeous, to ask you, qua Mater Dei (atque Sancta Maria?) orare pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostrae?

No, the Catholic perspective does not think the soul is sexless, if it were, the body would also be sexless.

If you had a soul apart from a material body, things like it's sex, or it's other physically instantiated elements, would be in a certain sense without meaning.

One way to think of it is that the soul is a sort of mathematical pattern, from which the material elements of the individual take shape. It's the pattern that makes us this, and not that.

Thank you, DemiColon. That example of the mathematical pattern is a helpful analogy.

I think of it that if, say, I had been born blind, even accepting that with the right sort of faith that still would have meant I had a perfect body with its own purpose in the eyes of God, my soul would be beyond such details. My soul wouldn’t just be an exact blue-print of a physical state.

Also, if my mind and character were to disintegrate physically due to dementia before I die, my soul would not just be the formula of that end state.

However, I am very interested in what you say, and open to knowing what you people with theological knowledge say in general as I never heard the details philosophically discussed in depth at all.

……………………………………………………………….

Though it is a bit difficult for me to understand everything at liwoxac, DemiColon and MaterDei’s level of discussion, I happened to recognise what liwoxac · Today 10:16 said in Latin:
Meanwhile would it be blasphemous, or just sacriligeous, to ask you, qua Mater Dei (atque Sancta Maria?) orare pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostrae?

If anyone wandering on this thread doesn’t know what that was about, it was just lixoxac joking to MaterDei.

MaterDei means Mother of God. (Quite a user name, MaterDei, but a fine one!)

So, liwoxac asked MaterDei,

“Which mother of God ([the one] otherwise [known as] Holy Mary?) pray for us sinners now and for our death?”*

The prayer says:
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

This simple prayer is very important to Catholics, and at one point even children knew it.

MaterDei may also have meant their name to express simple exasperation as in,
”Mother of God! Look at this mess!”

SorryO meant to say “At one point even children knew it in Latin. “

Actually my name is Mary...hope this clears the username issue up! 😅

Yes, ScrollingLeaves, if I'm understanding you properly, things like illness are seen as a kind of deviation from the proper pattern of the soul. Not that they are somehow evil, but they are a result of the separation we experience from God, just like psychological or spiritual illness, and death itself, are a reflection of our lack of perfect union with God.

So in the Eastern Church, they say that the Church is the hospital for sinners, where the ultimate goal is perfect union (theosis) which would mean healing for all kinds of illness, be it physical, mental, or spiritual. This is why it's not just about abstract beliefs, but also sacraments and connection with others, and practices involving the body - it's a holistic union.

From this POV you could have something like a DSD, where there was a problem with your physical body, just like being diabetic. Or like classic sex dysphoria, where you had a psychological problem. But the idea of an unmatched soul and body would be impossible.

Hello!
There's a thread on transubstantiation in the philosophy/religion section of mumsnet you might find interesting!

Pope Benedict XVI called out the transgender agenda nearly 40 years ago in his 1984 interview with Italian journalist Vittorio Messori (published as The Ratzinger Report), then Cardinal Ratzinger called out the embryonic transgender movement before anyone else even realized it existed. In the interview Cardinal Ratzinger stated: “It is not by chance that among the battles of ‘liberation’ of our time there has also been that of escaping the ‘slavery of nature,’ demanding the right to be male or female at one’s will or pleasure, for example, through surgery, and demanding that the State record this autonomous will of the individual in its registry offices.” He noted, however, that changes in appearance to make a male look like a female and vice versa do not alter biological reality: “Incidentally, one must realize that this so-called sex change alters nothing in the genetic constitution of the person involved. It is only an external artifact which resolves no problems but only constructs fictitious realities.” Ratzinger then remarked how quickly governments were giving in to the transgender agenda and changing the legal sexual status of a gender-confused person.

*MaterDei^· Today 20:41

ScrollingLeaves · 13/05/2023 12:34

Re: Catholic literal belief in transubstantiation

For clarity, St. Paul says the risen body is “spiritual ” (15:44)MaterDei

As I know perfectly well there is no actual body or actual blood, for me, transubstantiation must be spiritual, like the spiritual body of resurrection in this reference from MaterDei yesterday. Or perhaps the Platonic ideal of Christ’s body and blood?

Hello!
There's a thread on transubstantiation in the philosophy/religion section of mumsnet you might find interesting!

Thank you very much, I’ll go and look.

Thank you for that about Pope Benedict the XVI, how interesting. Would that people had listened. I wonder if Tony Blair might have paused the GRA if he had read this?

I just saw this was Pope Benedict’s motto:
Cooperatores veritatis
( 'Cooperators of the truth')

I can’t add to the Catholic viewpoint as I only have a vague background there. But I have noticed that those who are most strongly TWAW are those a) who are extremely anti-religion and sneer intolerantly at anyone “stupid” enough to “worship sky-fairies”, and b) whose adherence to gender ideology apes that of a religious belief. Oh, the irony.

Outside of Methodists, you don't see a lot of "conformist" trans people into religion, often it's new agey shit with that plasticky, tiktok veneer of mysticism. Tw very into witchcraft, as worshipping Diana is about the most woman-centric you can do, and all the groups and covens are handmaidy. The ones I've seen are primarily solitary practictioners, as let's be honest, many of them are too narcissistic to form any kind of hierarchy.

There are plenty of us witchy types - whether we refer to ourselves as witches, pagans or whatever - who have no time for gender ideology at all. It is a nature-based religion and those of us who have our roots in the natural world and/or farming know that sex is immutable, non-binary and fundamental.

One of the central tenets of paganism and witchcraft is the duality of deity; the worship of the God and Goddess who, while they may have various forms (e.g. the Maiden, Mother and Crone, or the Oak King and the Holly King, as reflected through the seasons) are immutably male and female. Anyone with the most basic understanding of nature will know this to be the case.

However, paganism and witchcraft have always attracted those who have sought to be visibly and noticeably “other”. If I’m being cynical I’d say that they aren’t in it for the relationship with deity or the worship of nature, it’s just another facet of “Look at me, I’m special and different”. They rarely last on the path and it’s noticeable that their intentions aren’t true. But we get tarred with their brush and it gets right on my wick(cca).

The ones I've seen are primarily solitary practictioners, as let's be honest, many of them are too narcissistic to form any kind of hierarchy.

Sorry to requote this but I just want to reiterate that not all groups are handmaidy and not all solitaries are “narcissistic”. There are plenty of down-to-earth pagan types who practice their faith quietly (either alone or in groups) or even noisily but without the attention-seeking.

Please don’t tar us all with the same brush 🙂