Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender theory and religious beliefs

116 replies

Parisite · 10/05/2023 19:34

I'm wonder how much to make of the fact that the former head of Stonewall is a practising Catholic.

Somebody who thinks you can have a 'true' inner gender identity that is at odds with your body... belonging to a religion that talks about an invisible soul as the seat of true identity, in tension with the body.

Are people from faiths that believe in a soul (eg Catholics, New Agers) more likely to believe gender theory, because they're used to thinking the 'authentic' self isn't their body?

Thoughts sparked by this article, which questions the idea that people have an inner 'True Self' at odds with everyday, embodied life:

https://www.flaneurnotes.com/post/on-not-having-a-true-self

On Not Having a ‘True Self’

‘This above all: to thine own self be true.’ One of many lines from Shakespeare’s Hamlet that have become everyday English phrases. They are the words of Polonius, chief minister to the King, to his son Laertes before he heads off to university. Here,...

https://www.flaneurnotes.com/post/on-not-having-a-true-self

OP posts:
MaterDei · 10/05/2023 21:53

Pope Francis has repeatedly and emphatically spoken out against gender ideology. He has also boldly pushed back against cultural pressure — what he terms “ideological colonization” — being placed on individuals, families, schools, churches, cultures and countries, who resist this redefinition of what it means to be a human person.

While emphatically encouraging Catholics and all people of good will to support, welcome, accompany and love all those whose gender identity does not match their biological sex, to affirm their human dignity and defend their fundamental human rights to be free of violence and unjust discrimination, Pope Francis has simultaneously been very clear about the dangers to those with gender dysphoria and to all of society from gender ideology.

In his 2016 exhortation Amoris Laetitia (The Joy of Love), the Pope wrote that, by denying the “difference and reciprocity in nature of a man and a woman” and promoting a “personal identity and emotional intimacy radically separated from the biological difference between male and female,” gender ideology ultimately makes human identity “the choice of the individual” and undermines the “anthropological basis for the family.”

It is “one thing to be understanding of human weakness and the complexities of life,” he continued, “and another to accept ideologies that attempt to sunder what are inseparable aspects of reality.” We must, he emphasized, “protect our humanity, and this means, in the first place, accepting it and respecting it as it was created.”

Our sex — just like our genes, race, age and other natural characteristics — are objective givens, not subjective choices.

In his 2015 encyclical letter Laudato Sì (Care for Our Common Home), Pope Francis wrote at length on why the protection of our humanity is at stake:

“Acceptance of our bodies … is vital for welcoming and accepting the entire world as a gift, … whereas thinking that we enjoy absolute power over our own bodies turns, often subtly, into thinking that we enjoy absolute power over creation. Learning to accept our body, to care for it and to respect its fullest meaning, is an essential element of any genuine human ecology. Moreover, valuing one’s own body in its femininity or masculinity is necessary if I am going to be able to recognize myself in an encounter with someone who is different.”

He described the consequences of questioning the complementarity between man and woman further in a 2015 General Audience. “The differences between man and woman are not for opposition or subordination, but for communion and generation,” he said. Rather than leading to a more free and just society, gender ideology in fact hinders communion and generation between men and women. It’s a “step backwards,” he underlined, “a problem, not a solution.”

When the natural, complementary duality of man and woman is called into question, the very notion of being — what it means to be human — is undermined. The body becomes no longer a defining element of humanity. The person becomes reduced to spirit and will and the human person almost becomes an abstraction until one discerns what nature one is or selects which of the four, or 58, or 64, or 100 possible genders or more one wants to be.

Pope Francis is particularly concerned about gender ideology being taught to children, so that boys and girls are encouraged to question, at the earliest ages of existence, whether they are a boy or girl, and told that gender is something one can choose.

That’s one of the reasons why the Vatican’s Congregation for Catholic Education published a lengthy document in 2019 entitled, “Male and Female He Created Them: Towards a Path of Dialogue on the Question of Gender Theory in Education,” to give clear principles to Catholic educational institutions throughout the world and equip parents and educators in non-Catholic institutions with arguments as to why gender ideology not only exacerbates the confusion of children who might be experiencing gender dysphoria but confuses all children, undermining basic common sense and their security in knowing their nature and identity.

.

MrTiddlesTheCat · 10/05/2023 21:54

I'm originally from a Catholic country and there are only 5 or 6 crematoria in the entire country.

ScrollingLeaves · 10/05/2023 22:03

MrTiddlesTheCat · Today 21:51

“ScrollingLeaves” · Today 21:49”

It's why catholics don't really do cremation
MrTiddlesTheCat Today 21:25

“They do do cremations nowadays! It changed in 1963.”

“Lots of people who are Catholic are Catholic in their own way and for different reasons and with private beliefs”.

I know. That's why I said 'don't really do' as opposed to 'don't do'. My own dad was cremated but his ashes were then buried so that his body was still whole, well in one place anyway, ready for resurrection

I am sorry I missed your nuance, MrTiddles.

That is a wise precaution on your Dad’s part. 🙂

ScrollingLeaves · 10/05/2023 22:24

MaterDei · Today 21:53

All you wrote ……… thank you very much for your eloquent and lucid explanation of what Pope Francis thinks about gender ideology. I had had no idea how he had written of this in such detail and with so much thought.

The way you have written about this is beautiful in its own right.

For those who do not know, Pope Francis also said of gay people, “Who am I to judge?” and, “Sex is one of the beautiful things God gave to human beings” and, “The church cannot close its doors on anybody. I don’t have the right to cast anyone out from the church. My job is to receive, always.”

ArabeIIaScott · 10/05/2023 22:55

Parisite · 10/05/2023 20:40

In a way I'm less interested in whether the idea of the soul is true, or bonkers.

More in whether having a religion that believes in the soul might make a person (in particular the former head of Stonewall) more likely to believe in a gender theory that assumes people have a 'gendered soul' different from their body.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/05/29/attitudes-toward-spirituality-and-religion/

'Majorities in most countries agree with the idea that they have a soul, including seven-in-ten or more in Portugal (80%), Finland (73%) and Norway (70%). Sweden and the UK are exceptions; roughly four-in-ten Swedes (39%) and about half of British respondents (49%) say they believe they have a soul. Smaller, but still substantial shares across the region (median of 46%) feel a connection to something that cannot be seen or measured scientifically.'

A lot of people believe in the concept of a 'soul'.

5. Attitudes toward spirituality and religion

Spirituality and religion can be defined in many different ways, and the distinction between the two concepts often is muddy. For the purposes of this

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/05/29/attitudes-toward-spirituality-and-religion

Parisite · 10/05/2023 23:16

ArabeIIaScott · 10/05/2023 22:55

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/05/29/attitudes-toward-spirituality-and-religion/

'Majorities in most countries agree with the idea that they have a soul, including seven-in-ten or more in Portugal (80%), Finland (73%) and Norway (70%). Sweden and the UK are exceptions; roughly four-in-ten Swedes (39%) and about half of British respondents (49%) say they believe they have a soul. Smaller, but still substantial shares across the region (median of 46%) feel a connection to something that cannot be seen or measured scientifically.'

A lot of people believe in the concept of a 'soul'.

Helpful stats, and higher than I would have thought. It implies I'm asking the wrong question, by focussing on particular faith groups, because believing in some sort of soul is what most people do.

In a way that's even more interesting – it implies whole populations are predisposed to thinking a person's 'true' identity is not their body.

OP posts:
Redbird87 · 10/05/2023 23:42

@Parisite Close, from the States :3

I've read about Church of England believers belonging to the gender thing too, but obviously we don't have much of them here. But what I can tell you is that here, the Baptist community doesn't tend to be into it, except sometimes since lesbian outliers who were treated very badly after a sexual assault, and with their sexuality being seen as deviant anyway, I suppose that for some families, transing your kids is the lesser of two evils. You can read some stories like that on Twitter from detrans women, it's all very sad and compelling.

Outside of Methodists, you don't see a lot of "conformist" trans people into religion, often it's new agey shit with that plasticky, tiktok veneer of mysticism. Tw very into witchcraft, as worshipping Diana is about the most woman-centric you can do, and all the groups and covens are handmaidy. The ones I've seen are primarily solitary practictioners, as let's be honest, many of them are too narcissistic to form any kind of hierarchy.

DemiColon · 11/05/2023 00:46

Catholics believe the soul is the form of the body, the two are completely intertwined and not really separate. The body - the matter - is male or female because the soul is male or female. It's not just people that have a form either, it's everything that exists.

In general Christian and especially Catholic theology is very materially grounded, it's very distinct from classic pagan religion, many eastern religions, and certainly from New Age type beliefs in that sense.

I'm not sure that religious people are actually more likely in general to subscribe to gender ideology. A lot seem to be atheists.

DemiColon · 11/05/2023 00:55

PikesPeaked · 10/05/2023 21:41

My first question would be though, does this ideology reflect a coherent concept of a soul and a narrative? And the whole 'in the wrong body thing' reflects a quasi religious narrative, where the major tenet is faith.

It absolutely is a faith. It depends utterly on belief in an unprovable principle, just as faith in a deity does.

As for coherence - when words mean just what you want them to mean at that moment and in that situation, there is no coherence.

Belief in materialism requires faith in an unprovable principle too, so I don't think the religious are especially encumbered compared to any other group.

DemiColon · 11/05/2023 01:06

My suspicion is that currently, a large section of the population, including many religious people, but more especially non-religious people, don't have any real theory about what it is to be a person.

When push comes to shove, most people deep down think of themselves, their loved ones, and others as more than meat puppets. They think they are persons, with some kind of free will, inherent rights and dignity, obligations to the Good, and so on. Even if they don't say it, that is how they behave.

What most don't have, unless they take time to search it out, is a robust sense of what the rational basis of that viewpoint is. What really makes us human, and persons, and what are the logical implications of that?

I suspect that leaves people vulnerable to some pretty fourth rate thinking, when it becomes popular.

DontGetEvenGetEverything · 11/05/2023 02:09

@Redbird87 "Tw very into witchcraft, as worshipping Diana is about the most woman-centric you can do, and all the groups and covens are handmaidy."
I think Szuzana Budapest is still a women-only leader in Dianic Wicca? I haven't practiced myself in years, but I loved her work, so I hope so. Mind you, I'd understand if she'd caved because activists have been gunning for her for decades and her livelihood was threatened.

DontGetEvenGetEverything · 11/05/2023 02:31

I've been thinking about gender theory and religious belief ever since the good faith discussion threads.
I'm not going to tag them, because I think they want to step back from discussion here, but there was a poster who confidently asserted that they believe trans women are women because of their gender identity. But they were also clear they do not understand what a gender identity is.
It put me in mind of the habit I have seen, once or twice, of white, highly educated, irreligious progressive people using the phrase, "peace be upon him," after saying or writing the name of the prohet Mohammed. They don't actually understand the significance of the phrase, or hold to any of the beliefs that motivate its use. It's a woker-than-woke performance that actually treats a minority (in the west) community like an exotic toy.
The quote on the Madalen Burns birthday thread, "I'd rather be rude than a liar," connects to this in my thoughts as well. There is something very middle class about all the pretence.

PriOn1 · 11/05/2023 04:58

I think a belief in gender identity is faith based, just as religion is faith based, but I think people who have religious faith and a god to worship, probably are less likely to kneel before the altar of trans worship.

Online atheists and sceptics, on the other hand, to the astonishment of a small minority of their fellow sceptics, have fully embraced the full gamut of the new religion and seem utterly unable to grasp that they are demonstrating their lack of logic with every rampant and misogynistic tweet.

PriOn1 · 11/05/2023 05:03

Oh, I should add that I think there will be many churchgoing types who would be in the still-ignorant, be kind brigade, but the overlap between sceptical atheists and the truly committed gender faithful is well documented.

OldCrone · 11/05/2023 05:45

PikesPeaked · 10/05/2023 20:41

One of the most senior rabbis in Reform Judaism, Rabbi Laura Janner-Klausner, is TWAW. Absolutely incomprehensible IMO. How can a Rabbi say that God made a mistake and put the wrong soul into a person's body? What about the statements in the Torah that humankind were created male and female, and that because we were made 'b'tselem Elohim', in God's image, we have a duty to look after our bodies - and those of other people - and prevent unnecessary harms or disrespect happening to them. Even if she doesn't feel that every single statement in the Bible should be followed utterly (all religious people pick and choose) does she not consider the principle of 'Lifnei iver' important? Perhaps not, perhaps she doesn't see transition as promising somebody something they cannot have. Perhaps she doesn't see divorcing a person's mindset from reality as causing them future harm.

To my understanding, transgenderism is utterly contrary to the tenets of Judaism.

Rabbi Laura Janner-Klausner has a trans child.

https://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/rabbi-laura-janner-klausner-transgender-child-1.470865

What she seems to be doing is making her religious beliefs fit with her child's beliefs in genderism, so as not to reject her child.

The need felt by parents to support their vulnerable trans identifying children has played a massive part in the spread of this ideology.

https://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/rabbi-laura-janner-klausner-transgender-child-1.470865

PilesPeaked · 11/05/2023 07:13

What happened to "I love you but I don't agree with you"? If her child became a Messianic Christian, would she be arguing that Christ was right and that Judaism is obsolete? (Yes, I know he did not, but that is a common misperception. Rather like the misperception that affirmative treatment is harmless.)

Rejection of transgenderism is often associated with the fixed beliefs of religious rigidity. I wonder whether the 'progressive' branches of religions are more vulnerable to accepting and incorporating transgender beliefs into their religious world view.

PilesPeaked · 11/05/2023 07:20

Belief in materialism requires faith in an unprovable principle too, so I don't think the religious are especially encumbered compared to any other group.

I don't understand.

OldCrone · 11/05/2023 07:33

What happened to "I love you but I don't agree with you"?

I don’t think the extreme adherents of genderism allow such nuance. If you don't agree that TWAW then you are considered a total bigot. I think parents in her position often fear that their (adult) trans child might disappear with their new glitter family and they will lose them completely. This is a [c-word].

I'm sure it would have been much easier for her if her child had become a Christian.

GrumpyPanda · 11/05/2023 07:38

Parisite · 10/05/2023 20:40

In a way I'm less interested in whether the idea of the soul is true, or bonkers.

More in whether having a religion that believes in the soul might make a person (in particular the former head of Stonewall) more likely to believe in a gender theory that assumes people have a 'gendered soul' different from their body.

Sounds more like gnosticism to me. Technically a heresy ever since the Council of Nicea back in 325.

SlipperyLizard · 11/05/2023 07:41

Rev Steve Chalke (who runs Oasis academies or he wouldn’t be so dangerous in this regard) fully accepts gender ideology, including confidently spouting debunked suicide stats. I agree that generally, though, there doesn’t seem to be a correlation between religious believers and gender believers.

How anyone who believes in the Christian god that I learned about as a child (convent school and years of Sunday school at a church that I’ve forgotten the denomination of) can make a mistake by inserting the wrong soul into a body is beyond me.

But true scorn belongs to high profile atheists who promote this rubbish.

liwoxac · 11/05/2023 08:20

DemiColon · 11/05/2023 00:55

Belief in materialism requires faith in an unprovable principle too, so I don't think the religious are especially encumbered compared to any other group.

Much of what you say is right (sc. I agree with you). But you might consider that perhaps a denial of religion may not simply entail acceptance of materialism. There are other games in town.

MircusWazRobbed · 11/05/2023 08:25

PilesPeaked · 11/05/2023 07:13

What happened to "I love you but I don't agree with you"? If her child became a Messianic Christian, would she be arguing that Christ was right and that Judaism is obsolete? (Yes, I know he did not, but that is a common misperception. Rather like the misperception that affirmative treatment is harmless.)

Rejection of transgenderism is often associated with the fixed beliefs of religious rigidity. I wonder whether the 'progressive' branches of religions are more vulnerable to accepting and incorporating transgender beliefs into their religious world view.

Yes re 'progressive branches'. Reform Judaism is often criticised by those to the right for jumping on the ideological bandwagons of the day. Possibly to set themselves apart from the more traditional wings.

As an aside, I really really dislike the trope that keeps getting pulled out that there are umpteen 'genders' in the Talmud. There aren't, the Talmud is discussing people with DSDs or any other medical conditions that affect genitalia/puberty and sexual development and how they fit into a framework where your legal, religious and social obligations are determined by biological sex. Just to get that off my chest.

Can't speak for other religions, but the traditional stream of Judaism is very rooted in biological reality and this world. It doesn't sit at all well with gender ideology.

PilesPeaked · 11/05/2023 08:41

Absolutely with you on that, MircusWazRobbed.

Parisite · 11/05/2023 09:41

Thanks so much for all your contributions. What I'm hearing many of you say is something like:

'It's too simplistic to say if you have an unprovable religious faith, you're more likely to be open to unprovable gender theory. In practice, a committed faith roots a person in a different worldview, and gives them a critical place to stand outside the fads of the culture (examples given from Catholicism and Judaism). This actually makes people with a faith more likely to question gender theory, not less.'

That's real food for thought!

OP posts:
ArabeIIaScott · 11/05/2023 10:55

PriOn1 · 11/05/2023 04:58

I think a belief in gender identity is faith based, just as religion is faith based, but I think people who have religious faith and a god to worship, probably are less likely to kneel before the altar of trans worship.

Online atheists and sceptics, on the other hand, to the astonishment of a small minority of their fellow sceptics, have fully embraced the full gamut of the new religion and seem utterly unable to grasp that they are demonstrating their lack of logic with every rampant and misogynistic tweet.

I'd say you probably get thoughtful, questioning, open minded people who also have religious beliefs, and you get reactionary, authoritarian, and disordered thinkers who are atheist. (and vice versa, of course).

For me that's probably the difference. Not so much the presence of a belief system, but how one is in respect of that. Some people hold their beliefs lightly and are able to consider and question them; some, less so.

In fact it's possibly more about interpersonal behaviours than beliefs, no? Whether one is evangelist or tolerant, curious or catholic, extremist or moderate, etc.

Swipe left for the next trending thread