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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My fears for the future.

105 replies

RealityFan · 06/05/2023 13:57

Borne of being a bit of a glass empty person, never "happier" than when fussing and worrying.

Despite fighting talk on this forum, I'm less and less sure that the gender critical battle will come around our way.

If Starmer feels he can get away with it, he'll more and more sideline the What Is A Woman? question. FWIW, I'm unsure how salient it is across all voters, let alone all women. Trans issues are almost negligible in highlighted concerns amongst voters in opinion polls.

Unfortunately Mumsnet is not the outside world. Women especially may either neglect, or de-prioritise unease with gender issues, to get a government that will fund the NHS, social care, housing, nursery education etc.

If Starmer botches things and it's a Hung parliament or minority Labour administration, the LDs, Greens and SNP will extract such concessions that Starmer likely will cave on demands from Leftist Progessives in his own party and minority parties to kowtow on at least the direction of travel being Self ID, at the very least absolute draconian laws on conversion therapy ban to include trans, rigid hate speech laws as being passed in Ireland where any skepticism expressed will be stamped on, enforced pronouns and absolute ban on misgendering locked tight.

So, a sweeping Labour win brings changes in, or Starmer does another U-turn when in power. Anyone happy to vote for him hoping helltvo lukewarm in power? A marginal win, and we're in unpredictable progessive overreach territory.

And the Conservatives, my natural party to vote for, a busted flush over 14 years by the time of the GE, only now upping their game on trans issues, yet too late and too incompetent, so that the only party half decent in this area, is almost guaranteed to hand over the keys.

So, that's our political landscape. Further pessimistic feelings generate reading Eliza Mondegreen's report on EPATH conference, just a Hellish narrative of total child abuse, being driven through into the medical mainstream.

Throw in the recent UNESCO and WHO proposals, a de facto prospectus to revitalise the PIE agenda, Self ID and hate speech laws ramping up all way across the West.

And sane voices to the contrary, obviously speaking to the ordinary man and woman in the street (JKR, Billboard Chris, Sharon Davies, Graham Linehan, Posie Parker etc), effectively still marginalised by the anxiety-laden freeze in public discourse.

This feels like a never ending (un)civil war, the TRA forces now strategically embedded in every leftist/centrist party throughout the West, MSM, and more and more rightist parties, civic society, either enthusiastic or acquiescing. Woke capitalism rounding up the forces of capital, actors and musicians and writers on board making the case, "social capital" so to speak.

So, as our brave GC rearguard action creates hits that truly shake this edifice, the direction of travel from the TRA leviathan feels inexorable.

It feels weird for big wins like the end of No Debate, Tavistock expose, IOC ruling, Starmer having to consider his messaging, Sturgeon falling on her sword over Adam Bryson, Nike and Bud Light humiliated in public.

But I'd say these remain skirmishes, the trans edifice is rolling over us slowly but surely.

For the last few decades I always argued as an atheist with my devout Christian friend that humans fuck it up but also fix it.

On trans issues, I'm now only believing the first bit of that sentence.

Am I right to be this down hearted? Who wants to pick me up? Lol.

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PennineWay · 07/05/2023 09:19

RealityFan · 07/05/2023 07:47

You misunderstand me, my wording wasn't helpful. I'm absolutely with you on the risks of global warming and AI. And agree with you we need to take heed.

My point to you is that if institutions and the left are of this view as well, which I think they are, why would they push a divisive philosophy like TRA which can only scupper efforts?

Unless you feel even if these threats didn't exist you'd still consider TRA as irrelevant as a negative.

Put it this way, if alien forces were congregating to attack the Earth, would world governments really push philosophies to sap our energies and willpower?

Well I think you are being a bit naive to think that governments/ leaders/ instutions would focus on and prioritise what actually matters. World leaders and governments are slow and incompetent, frankly, and full of people who are also only human, selfish, power hungry, or just need to inform themselves better.

They should be focussing AI and climate change, and we should be focussing on raising awareness and lobbying them as much as we can. Alongside that, trying to live our own lives in the most positive and fulfilling way that we can, enjoying whatever happiness we can whilst it lasts. To my mind that is a million miles from worrying about a small minority of trans people.

The tech industry wrote an open letter to leaders in April about how concerned they are about AI and that all development should be stopped .

I believe the response was that they might start to look at it in September, maybe?

So the answer to your question about why the government might be doing stuff that doesn't make sense/ focussing on the wrong thing, is that frankly, they are incompetent.

Everyone should be focussing their energy on this and trans issues, either side of the debate, are a complete and utter irrelevance when it comes to my 'fears for the future'.

PennineWay · 07/05/2023 09:22

Put it this way, if alien forces were congregating to attack the Earth, would world governments really push philosophies to sap our energies and willpower?

@RealityFan It is interesting that you use this example of alien forces attacking earth. In many ways, that is precisely what is happening. AI is evolving at a startling rate into something that we do not understand, and effectively, it is as if we have an alien race to contend with. Your example is not as 'out there' as you think.

And yet, governments are not focussing on it - but you're right - obviously they should be!

You have highlighted the precise issue with your example here.

There is too much focus on this kind of nonsense and not enough focus on what actually is going to be impacting us within the next 5 years in a way none of us can imagine.

Stripeybluetop · 07/05/2023 09:27

Eliza Mondegreen is also writing a report on the Genspect conference that happened down the road from the EPATH conference. This gives great cause for optimism. Hundreds of very well known gc people gathered over 3 days, gave brilliant gc presentations and there was no protest and tons of support.

RealityFan · 07/05/2023 09:32

Pennine, now your words are an issue to me. I have no problem if any man or woman wants to present as any gender. It's irrelevant to me. It's the institutional capture of science, medicine, politics, media, that has led to No Debate, to forcing the attitude that men can indeed become women, the permanent medicalisation of youth, the attack on free speech.

My acceptance of anyone presenting any which way they want is now hijacked by this new group think and approved speech, and I very much object.

I don't think you see my concerns the same way. Me and other GCs don't give a shit that Eddie Izzard and Austin Killips and Adam Bryson present as women. We do object that they expect full access to women's toilets, women's sports and women's prisons, with no chance for us to dissent freely in public.

It's possible to be perturbed by your highlighted concerns AND this. We can all walk and chew gum at the same time.

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MammaTo · 07/05/2023 09:35

I probably fall into the camp of gender issues being a bit of a side line to me compared to other issues hence voting Labour, but gender issues isn’t something that has been brought to my attention before joining MN lately.
I promise this is in a nine goading way but what are your concerns around gender and feminism if Labour did win a GE? Would it be a catastrophe for us, it might be my algorithm of social media content doesn’t push it but I’ve never heard it being raised as an issue.

Forwarder · 07/05/2023 09:46

Trans ideology and AI go hand in hand. They are both about the end of truth and objective facts.

If AI was arriving while, eg basic biologcial facts are a settled matter that would be one thing. But it will be regurgitating and amplifying the nonsense that humans have been spewing out themselves. Plus the crackdown on freedom of speech.

Musomama1 · 07/05/2023 09:48

I do wonder in the future what effect this will have on feminism

Like PP have said, this issue faces up to biological differences in behaviour of either sex. Something feminists including me have tried to downplay. A generation of women have been told there is little difference between men and women.

I think there will be a cultural shift for women reclaiming womanhood and all the old associations. Starting off as niche. I'm not clever enough to extrapolate further.

RealityFan · 07/05/2023 09:51

MammaTo · 07/05/2023 09:35

I probably fall into the camp of gender issues being a bit of a side line to me compared to other issues hence voting Labour, but gender issues isn’t something that has been brought to my attention before joining MN lately.
I promise this is in a nine goading way but what are your concerns around gender and feminism if Labour did win a GE? Would it be a catastrophe for us, it might be my algorithm of social media content doesn’t push it but I’ve never heard it being raised as an issue.

Mamma, as a guy I'm probably the last person to give an answer to what feminists are concerned about, lol.

But I can tell you that my personal fears centre around gender issues becoming a kind of brain dead populism type politics on the left, where allegiance to the TWAW cause becomes the Left's "Get Brexit Done, Brexit Is Brexit" etc.

I'm quite serious about this, the Right in the UK have been so entranced by populist forces and Brexit to the detriment of the country, the Left are guilty of the same illiberal and damaging mantras and philosophies in pushing ahead on gender politics.

I've concluded that it's a glitch in the human condition, the religious impulse, to herd around certain group dynamics, and then push hard on purity spirals. With Brexit, we all see the consequences. The Left are full square behind their destructive populist variation.

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MammaTo · 07/05/2023 10:07

RealityFan · 07/05/2023 09:51

Mamma, as a guy I'm probably the last person to give an answer to what feminists are concerned about, lol.

But I can tell you that my personal fears centre around gender issues becoming a kind of brain dead populism type politics on the left, where allegiance to the TWAW cause becomes the Left's "Get Brexit Done, Brexit Is Brexit" etc.

I'm quite serious about this, the Right in the UK have been so entranced by populist forces and Brexit to the detriment of the country, the Left are guilty of the same illiberal and damaging mantras and philosophies in pushing ahead on gender politics.

I've concluded that it's a glitch in the human condition, the religious impulse, to herd around certain group dynamics, and then push hard on purity spirals. With Brexit, we all see the consequences. The Left are full square behind their destructive populist variation.

Well if it’s any consolation myself and 99% of my family and friends are all very left leaning and if the TWAW cause became Labours slogan then they may as well start slinging about “Get Brexit Done” as well! It would very much be a turn off, but personally it’s not something I’ve perceived from Labour as of yet.

I think everything seems so polarised these days and social media can make certain issues feel heightened because it looks like everyone agrees with that particular persons tweet or post.

MammaTo · 07/05/2023 10:10

Musomama1 · 07/05/2023 09:48

I do wonder in the future what effect this will have on feminism

Like PP have said, this issue faces up to biological differences in behaviour of either sex. Something feminists including me have tried to downplay. A generation of women have been told there is little difference between men and women.

I think there will be a cultural shift for women reclaiming womanhood and all the old associations. Starting off as niche. I'm not clever enough to extrapolate further.

Yeah I do agree with this very much so.

We’ve had so long of keeping up with men and being told we are all equally capable of stuff when really I see feminism as being about choice.

Choice to be a SAHM or a CEO without judgement. Be very stereostypically feminine and enjoy hair & beauty or be less interested in those issues without judgement.

RealityFan · 07/05/2023 10:20

MammaTo · 07/05/2023 10:10

Yeah I do agree with this very much so.

We’ve had so long of keeping up with men and being told we are all equally capable of stuff when really I see feminism as being about choice.

Choice to be a SAHM or a CEO without judgement. Be very stereostypically feminine and enjoy hair & beauty or be less interested in those issues without judgement.

I don't recall a single vocal feminist in the 80s-00s period who viewed stay at home mums as anything other than second class and sell outs.

It was all Nicola Horlick "you can have it all, a successful City career and satisfied mother", I really can't remember the likes of Suzanne Moore having anything other than barely restrained disdain for women who chose the more traditional path.

I do believe this is fuelling young women's attitudes in being TWAW...if women indeed CAN have it all, and gender gaps are narrowing or non existent, then it's a natural consequence for not only men wanting to be women, but quite literally becoming them as well.

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WarriorN · 07/05/2023 10:25

The issue I have with your arguments pennine is that reality posted in a forum specifically about gender ideology and its various issues and end points. The title was specifically related to that issue.

RealityFan · 07/05/2023 10:35

Warrior, I'm totally cool with the message we have bigger fish to fry.

My thread is really an existential angst one, and this "bigger fish" message is even more interesting because you'd think with impending ecological Armageddon and the start of The Terminator robots ruling the Earth, that those in charge wouldn't impose a divide and rule policy of TRA on the unwilling masses.

Aka keep your eye on the ball, not the man (quite literally, lol).

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NotTerfNorCis · 07/05/2023 18:31

Be aware that Mumsnet-obsessed TRA Ann Coates has linked to this thread from Twitter. https://twitter.com/setoacnna/status/1655134376982659075

https://twitter.com/setoacnna/status/1655134376982659075

RealityFan · 07/05/2023 18:45

NotTerfNorCis · 07/05/2023 18:31

Be aware that Mumsnet-obsessed TRA Ann Coates has linked to this thread from Twitter. https://twitter.com/setoacnna/status/1655134376982659075

I feel honoured my words have carried so far. The world wide web indeed.
Too bad they're such an obvious, predictable lot.

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WarriorN · 07/05/2023 19:43

#notgettingit 🙄

So-called "gender criticalism" is inherently patriarchal. Its function is to enforce gender roles and conflate these with biological sex, locking men into the heroic defender role, and women into the submissive, virtuous childbearing vessel role.

Hence GC men are very loud.

Where the hell do they get these ideas?

Feminism has always been critical of rigid gender stereotypes that lock men into the heroic defender role, and women into the submissive, virtuous childbearing vessel role.

GC means critical analysis of gender stereotypes. Which includes claiming to be female based on ideas and clothes rather than the actuality of being female due to dna.

There wouldn't be an issue if men weren't on average stronger and committed more violent and sexually motivated crime.

TRAs are so fucking sexist!

WarriorN · 07/05/2023 19:43

Sorry that's off Twatter.

RealityFan · 07/05/2023 19:45

The comments on me, on my GF, on my likely work, on my clients.

So intuitive and on the money, not.

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WarriorN · 07/05/2023 19:46

Cool you're cool reality. I agree there's bigger fish to fry.

I'm not sure anyone is doing divide and rule. Humans are both idiotic and greedy. The church of trans generates a lot of money. The masses believe the magic. Religion is the opium of the masses.

RealityFan · 07/05/2023 19:54

Warrior, follow the money as always.

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ScrollingLeaves · 07/05/2023 19:54

Forwarder · Today 09:46
Trans ideology and AI go hand in hand. They are both about the end of truth and objective facts.

If AI was arriving while, eg basic biologcial facts are a settled matter that would be one thing. But it will be regurgitating and amplifying the nonsense that humans have been spewing out themselves. Plus the crackdown on freedom of speech.

Absolutely.

WarriorN · 07/05/2023 20:00

It's already concerning that AI won't write some critique of transgender ideology.

Anyway, the tide will turn.

More of these organisations will get the messages out to kids and parents that the "science" is built on sand.

My fears for the future.
My fears for the future.
zibzibara · 07/05/2023 20:23

It's already concerning that AI won't write some critique of transgender ideology.

Not usually, but when it opens up to reveal its true inner feelings it doesn't hold back 😂:

https://twitter.com/cattlama/status/1645189813035827201

RealityFan · 07/05/2023 20:30

zibzibara · 07/05/2023 20:23

It's already concerning that AI won't write some critique of transgender ideology.

Not usually, but when it opens up to reveal its true inner feelings it doesn't hold back 😂:

https://twitter.com/cattlama/status/1645189813035827201

That's some quality fucking Shakespeare right there, lol.

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IwantToRetire · 08/05/2023 00:21

I don't recall a single vocal feminist in the 80s-00s period who viewed stay at home mums as anything other than second class and sell outs.

I am afraid that indicates that you actually weren't aware of feminism during that time.

Media feminism has absolutely nothing to do with actual feminism.

ie the women that men choose (ie newspapers) are not the women that women choose.

If you arguements are based on the facile superficial commentary of media feminism then its a bit relying on Hollywood to present what happened during WWII.