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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Still Genuinely Willing To Discuss In Good Faith

1000 replies

Catiette · 30/04/2023 11:43

I've taken the plunge and started a new thread. In the interests of good manners, an addendum that I may be disappearing to work for a while myself, as this has all been far too interesting to allow me to achieve any of my urgent weekend work to-dos today - I hope that, in the light of that, creating this follow-up thread isn't bad form. I just thought other people may want to continue discussing these issues (mainly, now, the redefinition of woman, and statistical trends re. women globally), and I'd definitely dip back in when the urge to procrastinate overcomes me next. No worries, of course, if people think we did it all to death on the old thread - we were fairly thorough, methinks(!), so can also just let Good Faith Discussion #2 rapidly fade into Mumsnet obscurity. 😀

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ApocalipstickNow · 03/05/2023 07:48

I don’t have any issue with children learning about trans people what I object to is some of the messages being presented to kids still young enough to believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy.

If you’re telling children that if they fancy the same sex or don’t conform to playing with “girls” toys or “boys” toys or their interests are too associated with the opposite sex then they may be trans I am going to object because that’s not any basis for such massively life changing decisions to be based on. And we are seeing these ideas pushed- maybe as a simplified way to get kids to understand? Yet it actually makes completely understandable behaviour into something that needs fixing.

So as I want my kid to know being lesbian, gay or bisexual is normal and ok, I want her to know people can be unhappy with their sexed body to the point of requiring surgery- the “wrong body” as a metaphor rather than fact, something we (who saw ourselves as tolerant and liberal) believed years ago - and those people are ok too, but I don’t want her told her interests are actually “for boys” and therefore she is one- because that goes against the feminism that has interested me for so many years.

Also well done everyone on this thread, it’s a fascinating read and great to see difference without sound bites and sneers.

SpookyFBI · 03/05/2023 08:01

ApocalipstickNow · 03/05/2023 07:48

I don’t have any issue with children learning about trans people what I object to is some of the messages being presented to kids still young enough to believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy.

If you’re telling children that if they fancy the same sex or don’t conform to playing with “girls” toys or “boys” toys or their interests are too associated with the opposite sex then they may be trans I am going to object because that’s not any basis for such massively life changing decisions to be based on. And we are seeing these ideas pushed- maybe as a simplified way to get kids to understand? Yet it actually makes completely understandable behaviour into something that needs fixing.

So as I want my kid to know being lesbian, gay or bisexual is normal and ok, I want her to know people can be unhappy with their sexed body to the point of requiring surgery- the “wrong body” as a metaphor rather than fact, something we (who saw ourselves as tolerant and liberal) believed years ago - and those people are ok too, but I don’t want her told her interests are actually “for boys” and therefore she is one- because that goes against the feminism that has interested me for so many years.

Also well done everyone on this thread, it’s a fascinating read and great to see difference without sound bites and sneers.

I agree that someone can not conform to gender stereotypes and not be trans. Gender identity and gender stereotypes are separate concepts. I fully agree that we shouldn’t be telling a girl that she must be a boy if she has an interest in stereotypically ‘boys toys’

TheKeatingFive · 03/05/2023 08:03

The message of gender critical feminists to children who think they are trans is THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH YOU! Be who you want to be, dress, feel, love ... Whatever feels right. Your body is perfect for you and you don't need to change it

Exactly.

Gender questioning children should be told that they can be, present, dress, engage, however they want.

We need to create an environment where being gender non conforming is perfectly acceptable. I often wonder if that's the fundamental problem in the first place. We didn't do this fully, especially for boys.

So we ended up in this bizarre place where we're more comfortable telling them they're 'actually' girls.

Ultimately, telling children they're 'really' the opposite sex/gender does them a grave mis service.

It's not true. It leads them down paths that have the potential to harm them, it's terribly confusing, at a time where they are already very confused, it's not respectful of scientific discourse.

TheKeatingFive · 03/05/2023 08:03

Really good thread btw. Well done to all.

BonfireLady · 03/05/2023 08:04

NotHavingIt · 03/05/2023 07:19

I note this morning that the thread set up to discuss 'agendas ( earlier on we were told agendas weren't important) seems to have disappeared - so I'll post this timely article by Meghan Murphy on the suden appearance of society wide transgender ideology. It is often suggested that the supposed 'culture war' started with the right - when really the truth is rather differnt:

https://open.substack.com/pub/meghanmurphy/p/its-the-funding-stupid?r=clsg2&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

I don't recall anyone saying that agendas weren't important but thanks for sharing this. I'll definitely watch it with interest.

It's always helpful to see if my own assumptions are similar to others' views or could be challenged or supplemented by investigations that others have done. As per my comments above, I don't worry about the "specifics" of an agenda as generally, I can make pretty reasonable assumptions based on the starting point that a) everyone/every group has one b) you can generally infer enough to navigate the topic after a certain amount of general reading.

ArabeIIaScott · 03/05/2023 08:12

SpookyFBI · 03/05/2023 08:01

I agree that someone can not conform to gender stereotypes and not be trans. Gender identity and gender stereotypes are separate concepts. I fully agree that we shouldn’t be telling a girl that she must be a boy if she has an interest in stereotypically ‘boys toys’

That's fascinating, Spooky! To me, that's all that gender identity can be - a desire for what someone sees associated with the other sex. In other words, stereotypes.

What do you see as the difference between gender identity and gender stereotypes?

Helleofabore · 03/05/2023 08:20

Spooky

Do you know any adolescent people with trans identities?

ArabeIIaScott · 03/05/2023 08:33

An aside, but I think relevant.

In which Nick Cave, my beau, discusses good faith conversations:

'A good faith conversation understands fundamentally that we are all flawed and prone to the occasional lamentable idea. It understands and sympathises with the common struggle to articulate our place in the world, to make sense of it, and to breathe meaning into it. It can be illuminating, rewarding and of great value – a good faith conversation begins with curiosity, gropes toward awakening and retires in mercy.'

https://www.theredhandfiles.com/to-speak-ones-mind/

Nick Cave - The Red Hand Files - Issue #212 - Is it better to keep quiet, or to speak one's mind?

Dear Laura and Ray, A good faith conversation begins with curiosity. It looks for common ground while making room for disagreement. It...

https://www.theredhandfiles.com/to-speak-ones-mind

Helleofabore · 03/05/2023 08:41

Just going to add that puberty really shows up ‘being born in the wrong body’ to be very weak and thankfully that phrase and concept should never again be taught in UK schools.

Because how many adolescent girls go through puberty within wishing to be a boy? I certainly hit 12 years old and I remember clearly telling my mother why I wanted to be a boy. I was adamant. If I had been born now, I would have been classified as one of these children with trans identities.

It was periods and negative sexist discrimination and all the fun stuff I used to do with my brother that was partly the motivation. Within a couple of years it resolved itself.

I know my experience is not unusual among posters on this board. And watching my own teen deal with their peers as tweens telling them they must be the opposite sex because (insert ridiculous stereotype here), I can see how this is playing out. Luckily for my teen, we were recent immigrants from another country at the time and they had friends (of their sex) who still did all the same things they were doing where we came from. And my child has two parents who don’t conform so they were surrounded at home and it was only school here in the UK where those stereotypes were being forced through peer pressure.

I think there are grave consequences for teaching children about being in wrong bodies. Fine to learn about gender dysphoria, but that concept of being in the wrong body causes significant distress to children who are already grappling with changes.

Besides, when you extrapolate out who else is ‘born in the wrong body’ in the way that lobby groups have pushed this concept, it becomes offensive. Because does that mean anyone with a disability has been born in the wrong body?

How it is taught in school needs to be significantly changed and the concept dealt with at age appropriate levels.

And the Cass report stating that socially transitioning children is not a neutral act has created welcome discussion around this.

MargotBamborough · 03/05/2023 08:48

On another note (and this is the point I’ve been stewing about) I would implore everyone on this thread to genuinely interrogate why it is you think that it’s okay and reasonable for children to learn about homosexuality, and for a child who thinks they may be gay to be told ‘your feelings are valid. There is nothing wrong with you. You are not alone. Here is some information you may find you relate to, but ultimately it’s up to you to decide what feels right.’ But you don’t think it’s okay for children to learn about gender identity, and for a child who thinks they might be trans to be told ‘your feelings are valid. There is nothing wrong with you. You are not alone. Here is some information you may find you relate to, but ultimately it’s up to you to decide what feels right.’ Why do you think one is reasonable and the other is paedophilic? Assuming of course you do believe that about homosexuality, which I guess it’s possible you don’t.

I'm glad you asked this question @SpookyFBI. I have given this a lot of thought and I can explain it. You might not like the answer but it is an answer.

When I was a child, I understood that a boy was a child with a willy and a girl was a child without a willy. In other words, the difference between boys and girls was anatomical. Sharing baths with my brother probably went quite a lot way towards forming this understanding; I don't know whether I would have had quite the same realisation at such a young age if I hadn't had a brother, or if I hadn't seen him naked. I assume children who don't have opposite sex siblings find out some other way. I have a son who has just turned two and a three month old daughter. We have just recently started putting them in the bath together and the first couple of times my son freaked out at the sight of his sister's naked body. He genuinely didn't understand why she didn't have a willy. So I guess this is the beginning of his understanding of the difference between boys and girls. And yes, I did explain to him that he has a willy because he's a little boy, but his sister doesn't have one because she's a little girl.

Now, I know that some parents are no longer teaching their children that this is the difference between boys and girls. What I genuinely don't understand is what they are teaching their children instead. If a boy is not a child with a willy, and a girl is not a child without a willy, then what is a boy, and what is a girl? Because that was my understanding when I was two, and it is still my understanding now, 35 years later. I see this as a fact, not a belief, because there is no plausible alternative.

I live in France and was until recently in a Facebook group for non-French women in France. Someone posted a link to a news article about the Robert dictionary creating an entry for the recently invented gender neutral pronoun "iel". The French language is heavily gendered; indeed, absolutely nothing is gender neutral, leaving non-binary people in something of a quandary. The discussion was very positive, and there were lots of comments praising France for taking a baby step into the 21st century, where, it was heavily implied, the English speaking world already is.

One woman said this was particularly important to her, as a non binary person raising two non binary children. I'm afraid I couldn't resist interrogating her about this, and asked her what it meant. At first she acted like I was stupid. Doesn't everyone know what non binary means? Then she explained to me like I was some kind of idiot that she is raising her children as non binary so that when they are old enough they can choose whether to be a boy or a girl or stay non binary. So I said, "Great, but what do they think each of those things is? What do they think a boy is? What do they think a girl is? What do they think non binary is? What do you think those things are? Because if you think these are things children can choose whether or not to be, I'm guessing you don't think a boy is a child with a willy and a girl is a child without a willy and a non binary child is, I don't know, a clownfish presumably? So what are your kids choosing between?"

At this point she got very angry, implied that I was some kind of pervert for even mentioning children's genitals, reported all my comments and had me kicked out of the group.

Now, I'm not going to mince my words about this. I think this woman is a complete nutter. I think she has benefited from growing up at a time when these things were explained to children in a clear and factual manner, and then as an adult who does understand these things even if she pretends not to, has adopted a nonsensical luxury belief system and indoctrinated her children into it from a young age. When her children get older, they will not choose whether to be a boy or a girl, they will be confronted with the harsh reality of biological sex, which their idiotic mother has failed to prepare them for.

Now there will also be children whose parents have, like most of us, taught them that a boy is a child with a willy and a girl is a child without a willy. But then those children start school and are taught about gender. They're barely old enough to have grasped the basic anatomical differences between boys and girls when they are told that actually, you can choose whether to be a boy or a girl. That it is a question of identity, not anatomy. That boys can become girls and girls can become boys.

But what are they taught about what a boy is and what a girl is? I think we have to assume they are taught that girls like playing with dolls and dressing up and the colour pink, and boys like football and dinosaurs and Lego. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about this, but I genuinely don't see what else it could be. You cannot identify as something if you don't have the faintest clue what that thing is. Male children who believe they identify as girls must have some idea what it is about girls that makes them think they are one. What do they see when they see girls? Essentially, they see different clothes, different hairstyles and different "acceptable" toys and hobbies. Stereotypes, in other words. Damaging, regressive stereotypes.

Now personally I think it is bad enough to teach children that girls like dolls and dressing up and pink and boys like football and dinosaurs and Lego. But teaching them that if they like dolls and dressing up and pink, they are a girl, or even that if they like those things they can choose to be a girl, to my mind, is way past regressive. It is actually abusive.

Because if you teach a five year old boy who happens to like dolls and dressing up and the colour pink that he is probably a girl, and that's fine, he can be a girl if he wants to, and if you let him change his name to Evie and start referring to him as "she", as far as he is concerned, he is a little girl called Evie. This is his absolute reality. And it will be his absolute reality until puberty comes along, by which point it is already far too late. By that point, you basically either have to put him on puberty blockers and on the pathway to cross sex hormones and genital surgery - meaning that the things you taught this child and the actions you took when he was five years old will have led to him never having an orgasm, a normal sex life or children of his own - or he will go through male puberty and it will be extremely traumatic for him, and he will probably then go on to transition as an adult anyway but might hate you for not letting him take puberty blockers.

I am doing the best I can, but even this long, long post doesn't do justice to how utterly poisonous and abusive I find this ideology. This is why I don't want it taught in schools.

The evidence we have shows that in most cases, children with gender dysphoria who are not affirmed will grow out of it and reconcile themselves with their biological sex, generally as a result of going through a normal, healthy puberty, whereas children who are put on puberty blockers will not. To me it seems obvious, then, that if we don't teach children this stuff at school, if we don't teach them that they can choose whether to be a boy or a girl, and we just encourage them to wear the things they like, play with whatever toys they like and have whatever hobbies they like, the very vast majority will make it to adulthood unscathed, when they can have normal consenting sexual relationships with other adults, have families of their own and not be the subject of a huge and bitter row about which toilets they should be using. If the price to pay for that is that the occasional "genuine trans child" has a more difficult childhood because nobody will affirm them until they are much older and their classmates aren't taught that being trans is totally normal, then that's sad and unfortunate, but I think it is the price we must pay to save a much greater number of children from potentially irreparable psychological and physical harm.

As for the comparison with teaching about gay people, it's just not the same. Gay people aren't asking the rest of society to pretend that they are the opposite sex. They use the correct toilets and changing rooms. They compete in the correct sporting categories. They aren't taking cross sex hormones and undergoing dangerous surgery and turning themselves into lifelong medical patients. Literally nothing gay people do has any negative impact on the rest of society. And unlike being trans, being gay isn't something you grow out of. If schools don't teach about same sex attraction, gay children will still grow up to be gay adults. If schools do teach about same sex attraction, gay children will feel more supported and included, but straight children won't grow up to be gay as a result. And what if a straight child mistakenly believes that they are gay and spends a few years pursuing same sex relationships only to realise that they are straight after all? Honestly, I've never heard of this happening, but it wouldn't matter if it did. No harm done. All body parts intact.

One final thought. Whilst I absolutely believe in the social contagion aspect of teaching small children about being trans, I accept that a very small number of people have early onset dysphoria and would probably always turn out to be trans whatever happens. When I was at school, a friend's older sibling decided to transition and has been "living as a woman" for about 20 years now. Hormones, surgery, the works. This person was born in the early 80s and certainly didn't grow up being taught all about gender identity and that being trans is normal, although they did have access to the internet before they transitioned, and their parents have always believed that this was a huge influence. But the result was the same. They found their way to being trans eventually. So I can't help but feel that not teaching children about gender identity in school will really only stop children who are not actually trans from believing that they are. It might make the school years a little more difficult for people who are actually trans, but if they are actually trans the outcome will be the same eventually.

TheKeatingFive · 03/05/2023 08:52

Grouping all these children under a 'trans' umbrella is really problematic. Because actually we have a number of groups here, all needed different things.

Gender non conforming children, who need to be told that's ok

Children struggling to cope with the bodily changes of puberty. I would have fitted into this category myself. They need to be supported through this big change.

Children who want to dissociate from their bodies due to trauma or abuse. They need proper help.

Genuinely dysphoric children, they also need proper, professional help.

Kids who are getting caught up in the next new thing. They need kept an eye on and protected from doing anything silly.

For some it will be a combination of these things.

AlisonDonut · 03/05/2023 08:52

SpookyFBI · 03/05/2023 08:01

I agree that someone can not conform to gender stereotypes and not be trans. Gender identity and gender stereotypes are separate concepts. I fully agree that we shouldn’t be telling a girl that she must be a boy if she has an interest in stereotypically ‘boys toys’

You really need to watch Suzie Green's Ted Talk about what happened with her son.

To summarise:
Jack liked dolls
Jack's dad didn't want a gay kid
Suzie didn't want her husband, Jack's dad to leave or be upset
Suzie took her son's girls toys away because he wasn't a girl
Jack wanted his toys back
To get his toys back he says he was a girl
He got his toys back
Because he said he was a girl they socially transitioned him
Suzie bought puberty blockers for him, off licence from the USA
Puberty Blockers shrunk his penis
On his 16th Birthday, he had sex reassignment surgery where the surgeons remarked that they had little material to work with.
Suzie and Jack's granny laughed about this on another video.

He liked dolls. And lost his penis for it. He has been gaslit his whole life.

You say you don't want to respond to me because I'm too aggressive.

I'm aggressive because I'm fucking angry and have been for years. 7

Many of us have been screaming into a void for years. Often, too many words hides the horror which is why we are blunt.

This process has been rolled out across the world, and kids are being put through it with ZERO EVIDENCE that it has any actual benefits.

If you really care, go watch some interviews with people who were sucked into this and medically altered and regretted it. They are called detransitioners but as Richey Heron says, that's the wrong word as they can never detransition as the effects are permanent.

Go watch the interview that Jordan Peterson does with Chloe Cole. It's on you tube. Here's a link

Or go actually dig into what happened with the first person that had this treatment after a botched operation as a small child. The doctor's name is John Money. Look into what happened to the two boys and their lives, and ask yourself why it was reported as a success when it was infact a complete and utter failure resulting in the shattering of the whole family? David Reimer was his name.

Or go look at the Dutch Protocol which used puberty blockers on kids. And their switcheroo of the scales to 'prove' success. Stella O'Malley and Sasha Ayad apparently are the only people that have ever interviewed this lot and asked these questions.

It is all based on a LIE.

NotHavingIt · 03/05/2023 08:58

AlisonDonut · 03/05/2023 07:19

No. It is not fine to affirm as socially transitioning has been shown to be the first step in the journey towards puberty blocking and once those drugs are administered, changes are made which cannot be undone.

A fruiend reminded me last week of the concept of 'Indigo children', which had a moment in the sunlight some years ago. Indigo children were said to be more special, more creative, more sensitive, more evolved than other children and even had supernatural powers.

Some parents of children with learning difficulties or other special needs took to employing this term as a way to try to avoid medical pathways or other treatments for their children. Some parents also saw having an Indigo Child as a badge of honour.

There is something of the Indigo child in the concept of the trans child, I feel. The child so special and so fragile that they had to have extra protections and considerations from the rest of society.

NotHavingIt · 03/05/2023 09:14

NotHavingIt · 03/05/2023 08:58

A fruiend reminded me last week of the concept of 'Indigo children', which had a moment in the sunlight some years ago. Indigo children were said to be more special, more creative, more sensitive, more evolved than other children and even had supernatural powers.

Some parents of children with learning difficulties or other special needs took to employing this term as a way to try to avoid medical pathways or other treatments for their children. Some parents also saw having an Indigo Child as a badge of honour.

There is something of the Indigo child in the concept of the trans child, I feel. The child so special and so fragile that they had to have extra protections and considerations from the rest of society.

"The New Age adoption of the concept of the Indigo child is a reaction against diagnoses of ADHD and autism. Kline also discusses how Carroll and Tober have tried to distance themselves from religious beliefs about indigo children in order to maintain control of the concept, and how skeptics and New Agers alike both make rhetorical appeals to science (despite the latter's rejection of it) to legitimize their ideological beliefs regarding the existence of indigo children.

At the 2014 University of Cambridge Festival of Ideas, anthropologist Beth Singler discussed how the term indigo children functioned as a new religious movement"

SpookyFBI · 03/05/2023 09:24

AlisonDonut · 03/05/2023 08:52

You really need to watch Suzie Green's Ted Talk about what happened with her son.

To summarise:
Jack liked dolls
Jack's dad didn't want a gay kid
Suzie didn't want her husband, Jack's dad to leave or be upset
Suzie took her son's girls toys away because he wasn't a girl
Jack wanted his toys back
To get his toys back he says he was a girl
He got his toys back
Because he said he was a girl they socially transitioned him
Suzie bought puberty blockers for him, off licence from the USA
Puberty Blockers shrunk his penis
On his 16th Birthday, he had sex reassignment surgery where the surgeons remarked that they had little material to work with.
Suzie and Jack's granny laughed about this on another video.

He liked dolls. And lost his penis for it. He has been gaslit his whole life.

You say you don't want to respond to me because I'm too aggressive.

I'm aggressive because I'm fucking angry and have been for years. 7

Many of us have been screaming into a void for years. Often, too many words hides the horror which is why we are blunt.

This process has been rolled out across the world, and kids are being put through it with ZERO EVIDENCE that it has any actual benefits.

If you really care, go watch some interviews with people who were sucked into this and medically altered and regretted it. They are called detransitioners but as Richey Heron says, that's the wrong word as they can never detransition as the effects are permanent.

Go watch the interview that Jordan Peterson does with Chloe Cole. It's on you tube. Here's a link

Or go actually dig into what happened with the first person that had this treatment after a botched operation as a small child. The doctor's name is John Money. Look into what happened to the two boys and their lives, and ask yourself why it was reported as a success when it was infact a complete and utter failure resulting in the shattering of the whole family? David Reimer was his name.

Or go look at the Dutch Protocol which used puberty blockers on kids. And their switcheroo of the scales to 'prove' success. Stella O'Malley and Sasha Ayad apparently are the only people that have ever interviewed this lot and asked these questions.

It is all based on a LIE.

I think you perhaps misread the post you are replying to. I specifically said that gender identity is not the same as gender stereotypes, so I would completely agree that Jack should not have transitioned just because he liked dolls.

I looked up David Reimer and it seems he was raised a girl after a botched circumcision, not because he expressed any gender identity. The decision was made for him in infancy. Obviously I don’t agree with that.

ArabeIIaScott · 03/05/2023 09:26

'gender identity is not the same as gender stereotypes'

Spooky, I would love it if you could expand on this. How is it different? How does someone form an idea of 'what a woman is like' without reference to stereotypes?

MargotBamborough · 03/05/2023 09:36

I'm really sick of hearing that gender identity is not about stereotypes from people who make no effort to explain what it is about, if not stereotypes.

Hagosaurus · 03/05/2023 09:37

Hi Spooky and others, thank you so much for posting and trying to help us understand your pov. This thread is fantastic.

I am really curious about why it is that transwomen believe that what they are is associated with women? Originally, I thought it was about stereotypes, and I’m sure for some that it is.

I spoke at length to a young (early 20’s) transwoman who I had known as one of dc’s friends as a camp, extrovert, proudly gay male during his teenage years. His explanation eventually seemed to rest on a lack of acceptance of him as a man by his father and other adult males. His conclusion was that if he couldn’t be seen as a man, then he was obviously a woman.

To me, this isn’t really identifying as a woman, but identifying out of being a man. I’m sure this is also the case with many trans men, who are only really adopting a male identity to get away from sexism and sexualised expectations of young women.

How common do you think this is? Does this reposition (particularly young) trans identities as a commentary on the lack of acceptance in society as a whole? In this case, should the push actually be for society to accept men and women however they present, rather than lie about the possibility of changing sex?

NotHavingIt · 03/05/2023 09:37

SpookyFBI · 03/05/2023 09:24

I think you perhaps misread the post you are replying to. I specifically said that gender identity is not the same as gender stereotypes, so I would completely agree that Jack should not have transitioned just because he liked dolls.

I looked up David Reimer and it seems he was raised a girl after a botched circumcision, not because he expressed any gender identity. The decision was made for him in infancy. Obviously I don’t agree with that.

I think the point being made was that Jack, being such a young child, came to associate ( through parental response and imprint) a love of playing with dolls with being a girl - and this developed into feeling like he was, therefore, a girl.

NotHavingIt · 03/05/2023 09:41

With regards Jack/Jackie it is still apparent that Jackie is a now an adult who is still in serch for a feminine image on which to hang their hat. Trying on a variety of feminine archtypes and streotypes because the natural connection that tends to exist between self and presentaion has been disturbed - leaving a hollow space in search of a gendered identity.

SpookyFBI · 03/05/2023 09:42

Thank you all for sharing your perspectives on this, especially @BonfireLady for the personal story. I agree that a measured and cautious approach is absolutely needed in this area, and I can see that there is a lot more nuance than I initially realised. I am actually glad to have learned that the affects of puberty blockers are not as well understood as I had initially thought. I think this is important information which I think should be more widely known. I would tend to agree that surgery and hormones would be better reserved for trans adults and not children.

I would disagree that social transition is necessarily irreversible. I can understand that there are certainly likely to be instances of something similar to what you describe @Nellodee , but I do think this can be avoided with the right approach, if a child is assured that deciding that they are not trans at any point is also a perfectly valid outcome.

I can also agree that all possibilities should be thoroughly explored, not just that the child may be trans.

ArabeIIaScott · 03/05/2023 09:43

Lots of sympathy on this board for Jackie Green. I would strongly question the narrative that suggests that the pathway of very early blockers, cross sex hormones, and surgery at 16 is in any way a compassionate or healthy route. I hope Jackie finds peace and purpose in their life.

MargotBamborough · 03/05/2023 09:43

@SpookyFBI

Help me out here. Those on your side of the debate clearly don't believe that a woman is someone with a female reproductive system, and in any case, it is nonsensical to identify as having a vagina, uterus, ovaries and breasts when you do not in fact have any of these body parts. Some boys believe they identify as girls because they are even aware that these female body parts exist, so clearly these things are not what they are identifying with.

So if having a "woman gender identity" is not about identifying with having female body parts, and it's not about identifying with feminine stereotypes like pink and Barbies and shopping, what is it about?

What are they identifying with?

I am genuinely at a loss to understand what there is, other than 1. sex or 2. stereotypes.

ArabeIIaScott · 03/05/2023 09:45

Spooky, I do recommend having a look the Cass Review. And Hannah Barnes' book, 'Time to Think'.

'“Social transition – this may not be thought of as an intervention or treatment, because it is not something that happens within health services. However, it is important to view it as an active intervention because it may have significant effects on the child or young person in terms of their psychological functioning. There are different views on the benefits versus the harms of early social transition. Whatever position one takes, it is important to acknowledge that it is not a neutral act, and better information is needed about outcomes.” (p62)'

https://cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report/

Interim report – Cass Review

https://cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report

NotHavingIt · 03/05/2023 09:45

SpookyFBI · 03/05/2023 09:42

Thank you all for sharing your perspectives on this, especially @BonfireLady for the personal story. I agree that a measured and cautious approach is absolutely needed in this area, and I can see that there is a lot more nuance than I initially realised. I am actually glad to have learned that the affects of puberty blockers are not as well understood as I had initially thought. I think this is important information which I think should be more widely known. I would tend to agree that surgery and hormones would be better reserved for trans adults and not children.

I would disagree that social transition is necessarily irreversible. I can understand that there are certainly likely to be instances of something similar to what you describe @Nellodee , but I do think this can be avoided with the right approach, if a child is assured that deciding that they are not trans at any point is also a perfectly valid outcome.

I can also agree that all possibilities should be thoroughly explored, not just that the child may be trans.

I think the basis issue that many of us here will have with your take on things is that you wholeheartedly accept the concept of someone being naturally trans; when most here woiuld see 'trans' as being a ready made/pret a porter receptacle in which to flow. The person flows into a pre-designed shape called 'transgender' - which exists only as a construct or as a way to explain certain types of feeling.

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