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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Still Genuinely Willing To Discuss In Good Faith

1000 replies

Catiette · 30/04/2023 11:43

I've taken the plunge and started a new thread. In the interests of good manners, an addendum that I may be disappearing to work for a while myself, as this has all been far too interesting to allow me to achieve any of my urgent weekend work to-dos today - I hope that, in the light of that, creating this follow-up thread isn't bad form. I just thought other people may want to continue discussing these issues (mainly, now, the redefinition of woman, and statistical trends re. women globally), and I'd definitely dip back in when the urge to procrastinate overcomes me next. No worries, of course, if people think we did it all to death on the old thread - we were fairly thorough, methinks(!), so can also just let Good Faith Discussion #2 rapidly fade into Mumsnet obscurity. 😀

OP posts:
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48
GailBlancheViola · 02/05/2023 23:29

Possibly, Boiled, but that doesn't make it any better.

Boiledbeetle · 02/05/2023 23:38

Oh I know Gail, but fear of embarrassment and being seen as stupid for probably a lot of people is a big motivator for keeping quiet.

Hepwo · 02/05/2023 23:59

@Catiette A lot of us came into this knowing about transexualism before all this mystic weird stuff became popular.
I wonder if you have read anything by Blanchard?

www.nationalreview.com/2019/05/ray-blanchard-transgender-orthodoxy/

SpookyFBI · 03/05/2023 06:21

Wow, I admit I woke up still a little angry this morning but reading @Catiette ‘s post has renewed my hope that there is still a genuine desire here to genuinely try to understand one another’s perspective.

I would agree that the push to accept trans women as women would generally come under an esteem/self actualisation level of need. I think it may dip into physical safety in the case where a trans person has been rejected by their family, friends and community and could potentially sink into depression and suicide due to a lack of community and support. I think it also dips into safety in cases where genuine transphobia and harassment of trans people becomes socially acceptable, and trans people could become the target of violence. To me this risk puts it on equal priority to the safety issues that have been brought up by others around single sex spaces (many of these issues I do agree are problems that should be solved, I just don’t agree that single sex spaces are necessarily the best solution).

On another note (and this is the point I’ve been stewing about) I would implore everyone on this thread to genuinely interrogate why it is you think that it’s okay and reasonable for children to learn about homosexuality, and for a child who thinks they may be gay to be told ‘your feelings are valid. There is nothing wrong with you. You are not alone. Here is some information you may find you relate to, but ultimately it’s up to you to decide what feels right.’ But you don’t think it’s okay for children to learn about gender identity, and for a child who thinks they might be trans to be told ‘your feelings are valid. There is nothing wrong with you. You are not alone. Here is some information you may find you relate to, but ultimately it’s up to you to decide what feels right.’ Why do you think one is reasonable and the other is paedophilic? Assuming of course you do believe that about homosexuality, which I guess it’s possible you don’t.

Nellodee · 03/05/2023 06:43

No harm whatsoever is fine if a child is simply going through a phase of thinking they are lesbian. Irreparable damage is done if a child, merely going through a phase (and there is huge evidence that for many or most children it will be a phase) is given puberty blockers and placed on a medical pathway for life.
Being gay does not lead to lifelong medical issues, osteoporosis, infertility, loss of sexual function.

Nellodee · 03/05/2023 06:43

No harm whatsoever is done…

Nellodee · 03/05/2023 06:56

Social transition is not a neutral act.

I have a comparison. My friend asked the dining staff at school for gluten free meals, as she though she might be gluten sensitive. She discovered she wasn’t, but still will not eat anything with gluten in it at work, as she’s embarrassed to tell them she made them go to all that effort for a mistake.

Sometimes it’s easier to carry on along the road we’re on than to reverse and change direction, even if we’re not sure we’re on the right road.

As adults, it’s up to us to make sure children don’t feel they’re stuck on a road they can’t get away from. We want to keep their paths open for them until adulthood.

No paths are shut off by being gay. However, detransition is a very hard path to walk, if you’ve gone beyond a certain point. And it seems according to the Cass report that when transitioning children, that point may be quite early along the path, earlier than you might think.

SpookyFBI · 03/05/2023 06:58

Nellodee · 03/05/2023 06:43

No harm whatsoever is fine if a child is simply going through a phase of thinking they are lesbian. Irreparable damage is done if a child, merely going through a phase (and there is huge evidence that for many or most children it will be a phase) is given puberty blockers and placed on a medical pathway for life.
Being gay does not lead to lifelong medical issues, osteoporosis, infertility, loss of sexual function.

Sure. And I wholeheartedly and unequivocally agree that no permanent changes should be made to a child who is still exploring their feelings. If the general consensus is that surgery and hormones should only ever be performed on an adult who is able to give informed consent, but that a child who thinks they might be trans should have their feelings validated and affirmed and be given information which may help them explore their identity, can we agree that this is a reasonable position for someone who believes in gender identity to take? (I do understand that someone who doesn’t believe in gender identity would not want it taught to their children in the same way that an atheist wouldn’t want creationism taught to their children, I’m just trying to establish that there need not be any kind of malicious motive, even coming from the top so to speak)

Wellies54 · 03/05/2023 07:00

Because being gay is 'same sex attraction ', so to be ok with that is simply to accept that there is nothing wrong with that young person's feelings towards members of their own sex. Nothing needs to change, they can just act on their feelings.

As far as I can tell the whole concept of 'being trans' is to say that there IS something wrong with you. That it's possible to have a mismatch between your body and your sense of self. That your inner feelings are somehow incongruous with the reproductive system you have. That everyone around you is seeing you in the 'wrong' way. That the body you were born with might need to be altered (at great physical and financial cost) to 'better align' with your feelings.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what people say when they say they are trans, but as far as I can see, being trans can only exist if you feel that something is wrong with you and I cannot imagine a worse idea to push on developing children and teenagers

BonfireLady · 03/05/2023 07:04

I've been re-reading some of the most recent comments again this morning as it's been really thought-provoking.

@Catiette thank you for your brilliant moderation, facilitation and summation. I'd never even thought about Maslow's hierarchy of needs coming in to it all. It's a great observation.

@MargotBamborough thank you for the insight in to the political "right" and "left", the differences between the US and UK and the impact this has on our foundational thinking. @Helleofabore (your and my styles may not always be compatible with each other but) thank you also for your additional thoughts on this.

Also the evolution of the description of groups 1, 2 and 3 was really interesting @MargotBamborough

Reading @SpookyFBI's thoughts above, I wonder if the key word in the group one description is "reject"/"deny". I'm not sure what the right word is but I'm going to throw in "challenge" as a way of moving it from the emotions that could come with reject/deny (e.g. "why are you saying I deny things?"). I'm not sure I'm articulating that well as I've just woken up 😬 Happy to try again if not.

Perhaps my definition of Group 1 needs some tweaking. Rather than "rejects the reality of biological sex", perhaps it should read "denies the importance of biological sex". Because I'm quite sure that most people in Group 1 don't actually believe that humans can change sex or that trans women are literally the same as natal women.

So what it really comes down to is whether you think biological sex is what is important or not.

My suggestion: Group 1 challenges the importance of biological sex

Wellies54 · 03/05/2023 07:07

The message of gender critical feminists to children who think they are trans is THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH YOU! Be who you want to be, dress, feel, love ... Whatever feels right. Your body is perfect for you and you don't need to change it.

The message of trans activists is. There is definitely something wrong with you and the whole of society needs to accept that and acknowledge the wrongness. It is wonderful to have something wrong with you so you can feel hard done by for your entire life.

Sorry for waffling on but this is one of the things which makes me angry when I think of someone I know who has damaged their body irretrievably for this idea

BonfireLady · 03/05/2023 07:07

Oh, and I forgot to add @MargotBamborough you really helped me understand in my head why I can watch Matt Walsh's videos to a point but I come away feeling annoyed at his (as I see it) pompous and domineering position on men and women's roles in society when he slips that in.

NotHavingIt · 03/05/2023 07:12

SpookyFBI · 03/05/2023 06:58

Sure. And I wholeheartedly and unequivocally agree that no permanent changes should be made to a child who is still exploring their feelings. If the general consensus is that surgery and hormones should only ever be performed on an adult who is able to give informed consent, but that a child who thinks they might be trans should have their feelings validated and affirmed and be given information which may help them explore their identity, can we agree that this is a reasonable position for someone who believes in gender identity to take? (I do understand that someone who doesn’t believe in gender identity would not want it taught to their children in the same way that an atheist wouldn’t want creationism taught to their children, I’m just trying to establish that there need not be any kind of malicious motive, even coming from the top so to speak)

I think society in general has responsibility for children, which is why there are such things as safeguarding rules. Responsible adults impressing upon a child such a belief, affirming it, could certainly seen to be abusive action - in the same way that parents taking a child to a church for an or 'exorcism' practice if they were gay.

NotHavingIt · 03/05/2023 07:13

in the same way that might be construed as abusive

NotHavingIt · 03/05/2023 07:15

I suspect what a lot of this " let's be civil" and have a mutual "good faith" argument has been about - certainly long after it became apparent that views were irreconcilable - was for exactly this suggestion to be made. " If some parents believe this.....then it must be legal or acceptable for them to do it" even if others don't believe this to be acceptable.

NotHavingIt · 03/05/2023 07:19

I note this morning that the thread set up to discuss 'agendas ( earlier on we were told agendas weren't important) seems to have disappeared - so I'll post this timely article by Meghan Murphy on the suden appearance of society wide transgender ideology. It is often suggested that the supposed 'culture war' started with the right - when really the truth is rather differnt:

https://open.substack.com/pub/meghanmurphy/p/its-the-funding-stupid?r=clsg2&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

It's the funding, stupid

Trans ideology didn't take over in response to Republicans—it started with top-down funding and the silencing of women pushing back.

https://open.substack.com/pub/meghanmurphy/p/its-the-funding-stupid?r=clsg2

AlisonDonut · 03/05/2023 07:19

SpookyFBI · 03/05/2023 06:58

Sure. And I wholeheartedly and unequivocally agree that no permanent changes should be made to a child who is still exploring their feelings. If the general consensus is that surgery and hormones should only ever be performed on an adult who is able to give informed consent, but that a child who thinks they might be trans should have their feelings validated and affirmed and be given information which may help them explore their identity, can we agree that this is a reasonable position for someone who believes in gender identity to take? (I do understand that someone who doesn’t believe in gender identity would not want it taught to their children in the same way that an atheist wouldn’t want creationism taught to their children, I’m just trying to establish that there need not be any kind of malicious motive, even coming from the top so to speak)

No. It is not fine to affirm as socially transitioning has been shown to be the first step in the journey towards puberty blocking and once those drugs are administered, changes are made which cannot be undone.

NotHavingIt · 03/05/2023 07:26

Catiette · 02/05/2023 18:17

Something else I've been thinking about (and well done if you've got this far; I've been typing so long you've probably all moved on to Nick Cave or jaffa cakes by now anyway!) is why I do still, in the light of all the above, feel so strongly that the redefinition of woman, lesbian etc. is wrong, and, given this, the way forward. A few things came to mind.

  1. Social media has accelerated, and maybe distorted, the "natural"
    evolution of values and language. Until recently, the exchange of information
    at this pace simply wasn't possible, which surely didn't just enable, but
    forced, deeper consideration of such evolving issues? On the other hand, not
    everyone would have had the same access to the debate...

  2. I think, given that I can at last acknowledge that, despite the undeniable
    reality of biology, what we have here is a set of conflicting value judgements
    about how to order our world. Yes, we feel our argument is stronger because,
    well, biology, reality etc.(!), but how to present that convincingly to
    "opponents" who may deny both...? I think Maslow may have the answer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs).

He offers a clearly prioritised "objective" (in the sense of preceding all of this furore and being generally respected) hierarchy of human needs, without which the subsequent, "higher-order" needs become impossible, if not redundant.

My thoughts (for what it's worth, and the few lone survivors still crawling through the desert of my waffling...)

Physiological needs are the base of the hierarchy. These needs are the biological component for human survival.

We simply can't deny the centrality of sex to reproduction. It's a thing, people. We need to cater for it. Additionally, trans people people need good health care. For some this may mean transitioning physically, but all our our advanced understanding of medicine should be applied to do so safely.

Once a person's physiological needs are satisfied, their safety needs take precedence and dominate behavior.

This is why no one's going to convince traumatised women wary of male bodies to embrace these in her space. Maslow explains that, whether or not this shows a moral failure on her part (we, of course, would argue Hell, no!; Nancy Kelly etc., not so much). Meanwhile, transpeople need a number of enclosed proportionate third spaces. I don't accept that this isn't realistic: we did it for women and the disabled, we can do it for transpeople. I'd pay higher taxes to facilitate this.

After physiological and safety needs are fulfilled, the third level of human needs is interpersonal and involves feelings of belongingness.

This is where things get tricky, but if physiological and safety needs are addressed as distinct, practical considerations, in their own right, free from the complicating influences of high-level needs such as validation, we'll already have reached a point where both GC feminists and transpeople feel less alienated and more catered for than currently. This is also, surely, where the importance of clear communication comes in. And it's possible, right? We're doing it, after all!

Then, we have:

Esteem needs - esteem is the respect, and admiration of a person, but also "... self-respect and respect from others."

Cognitive needs - people have cognitive needs such as creativity, foresight, curiosity, and meaning.

Aesthetic needs - after reaching one's cognitive needs it would progress to aesthetic needs, to beautify one's life.

Self-actualisation - this level of need refers to the realization of one's full potential. Maslow describes this as the desire to accomplish everything that one can, to become the most that one can be.

I find it fascinating that this is all the way up here in the metaphorical pyramid, only possible when the preceding foundations have been laid. Is this part of why we're struggling so much as a society, now? Wealthy liberal democracies have begin to take the lower tiers for granted, our uniquely privileged position in the - well, history of humanity, more or less?! - encouraging an unhealthy introspection detached from concrete reality, as reflected in po-mo subjectivity? I posted upthread about the ways in which gender identity, unlike gender dysphoria, is surely the product of the interplay of an infinite number of factors unique to each individual... Unlike the genuinely dysphoric, who are, in a sense, wrestling with deep-seated physiological needs, unable to climb the hierarchy to live a meaningful life without resolving this, I think I'd suggest,
tentatively, that some people's perceptions of their gender relates to
this, less fundamental, tier.

OTOH, I'm interpreting this through the lens of GC bias, so... [is there a shrug emoji?]

Transcendence needs - Maslow later subdivided the triangle's top to include self-transcendence, also known as spiritual needs... When this need is met, it produces feelings of integrity.

I also find it interesting that something used to shape and define the very fundamentals of human existence - the spiritual, faith, organised religion - seems to be right up here in the pyramidal clouds. I actually worry that my confusion here may be a glaring sign that I'm fundamentally misunderstanding aspects of Maslow (no psychologist or sociologist - just a layperson in this area), so would be interested if someone else could explain it. But with the proviso of my probably-very-superficial-(mis?-)understanding of all this, though, and in anticipation of later embarrassing clarification by someone more knowledgeable, I may tentatively suggest that the placement of transcendence here parallels the popular GC analogy of gender ideology (the bold's important) as taking on the status of an effective religion in society, and its position on the hierarchy of needs explains our concern and frustration at this being used to re-write our laws and social contract - to do this from the shaky heights of the pyramid, at the expense of the important foundations further down, is, we would argue, no foundation for a stable society...

But, again, this is very much a GC interpretation of the hierarchy of needs. And almost certainly an embarrassingly flawed one at that. Would be fascinated to hear alternative, competing (and more informed) views!

Certainly the transgender and transhumanist agendas are predicated on escaping the limitations of the earth and the human body - and as you suggest are rooted in some kind of utopian - transcendent vision - literally.

Humankind seems always to have an innate drive for transcendance and sublimation - expressed either through hero worship, religious yearning or now more commonly through political idealism.

BonfireLady · 03/05/2023 07:27

@SpookyFBI my answer to your question about children comes from a very personal place. My daughter told me she was trans about a year ago. My first reaction was "OK". I would have had exactly the same reaction if she'd told me she was lesbian. To me they were on par with each other and I had no concerns about either. When she asked for puberty blockers I was a bit baffled but looked in to it. Initially I thought it was odd that someone should need to change their body to match their feelings but I figured I was probably just old-fashioned and I needed to get my head properly in to the 21st century. I met up with LGBT+ one on one (I'm still so grateful to the people that I spoke to for the time they gave me) and read lots and lots. When I started to learn about the impact of lifelong medication on people's health and well-being (e.g. sterilisation through a combination of puberty blockers and cross sex hormones, no verifiable evidence base to say that transition helped with feelings of gender incongruence over sustained time) I grew concerned and read more. I then discovered that the crossover between how an autistic girl and a girl with gender incongruence/disphoria present was huge and there was no deep understanding in the health service as to why. Anywhere between one third and nearly half of the children who were referred to the Tavistock clinic in the UK between 2010 and 2019 were autistic - the difference is accounted for by having a diagnosis and showing autistic traits. My daughter is autistic too and I realised that unless I worked out how to navigate this for her, she would change her body irreversibly (even "reversible" puberty blockers are now acknowledged as causing irreversible changes... just very quietly) when may not be the right path for her. That was enough for me to fight hard on her behalf to find the right answer for her.

The article that I wrote about it all (linked in the thread above) explains that in more detail but that's the gist of it in relation to your point. Had she realised she was lesbian rather than trans (she still doesn't know her feelings on sexual orientation), none of this would have been a concern at all.

NotHavingIt · 03/05/2023 07:31

Catiette · 02/05/2023 19:56

To be perfectly honest, @ArabeIIaScott and @MargotBamborough, I'm pretty much on board with your debunkings of my Group 4. I guess I was just playing with the ideas in the original list, in a way that deviated from its intent and also from some of my own beliefs. If I wasn't so involved in this thread, I'd be spending more time in the steel-manning one as I'm not too good at arguing for what I don't believe. I am good at compromise (I like to think!), but have, like many on here, become increasingly resolute in my views in the light of much of what Arabella listed. I find it interesting that trying to think through softer propositions than my usual does typically tend to return me ever more firmly to the opinion that, the multitude of I've no doubt lovely people caught up in it notwithstanding, something is rotten in the state of Gender(mark?) - but with the additional reassurance that I'm watching myself like a hawk to make sure I don't deviate from my own values of (I hope) fairness, empathy etc. I don't tend to subscribe to some of the ideas about the darker driving forces behind it all (bar capitalist forces, self-interested politics - dark enough for me - and self-interested individuals of all types leaping opportunistically on the bandwagon), but do feel that, in its current manifestation, the ideology is fundamentally, deeply misogynist, and exposing how very present that still is society (what a wake-up call it's been), and positively authoritarian in its (more extreme?: frankly, some of its more standard) manifestations....

Catiette , can iI suggest you use paragraphs? Often a long post is easier to confront if it does not appear aa a large inpenetrable wall of text. It also breaks up a post into manageable chunks, each containing related content.

NotHavingIt · 03/05/2023 07:32

Sorry, I see often that you do - but always.......

NotHavingIt · 03/05/2023 07:33

not always

My annoying habit is lots of typos.....

ArabeIIaScott · 03/05/2023 07:34

SpookyFBI · 03/05/2023 06:58

Sure. And I wholeheartedly and unequivocally agree that no permanent changes should be made to a child who is still exploring their feelings. If the general consensus is that surgery and hormones should only ever be performed on an adult who is able to give informed consent, but that a child who thinks they might be trans should have their feelings validated and affirmed and be given information which may help them explore their identity, can we agree that this is a reasonable position for someone who believes in gender identity to take? (I do understand that someone who doesn’t believe in gender identity would not want it taught to their children in the same way that an atheist wouldn’t want creationism taught to their children, I’m just trying to establish that there need not be any kind of malicious motive, even coming from the top so to speak)

Have you read the interim Cass Report, Spooky? Or looked into the Swedish, Finnish and Norwegian approaches to children with what they call 'gender incongruence'?

It's clear you've given these issues some thought, but it seems to be largely in an abstract way, as hypotheticals and theories. I don't mean this as a criticism, but I think it's very important we look at how these things are playing out in practice. Especially when the stakes are so high - as in children considering a medical pathway that leads to procedures that will sterilise them.

NotHavingIt · 03/05/2023 07:37

Nellodee · 03/05/2023 06:43

No harm whatsoever is fine if a child is simply going through a phase of thinking they are lesbian. Irreparable damage is done if a child, merely going through a phase (and there is huge evidence that for many or most children it will be a phase) is given puberty blockers and placed on a medical pathway for life.
Being gay does not lead to lifelong medical issues, osteoporosis, infertility, loss of sexual function.

Being gay is also rooted in a simple reality of same sex attraction - not in some imagined trapped spirit or soul in the wrong body, which would traditionally been seen as either a sublimation drive, or the sign of a mental health issue.

ArabeIIaScott · 03/05/2023 07:41

One of the potential issues with children being put on a.'trans' pathway is the apparent tendency to focus on this potential identity to the exclusion or overlooking of other co morbidities.

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