Still Genuinely Willing To Discuss In Good Faith

[Catiette]

I've taken the plunge and started a new thread. In the interests of good manners, an addendum that I may be disappearing to work for a while myself, as this has all been far too interesting to allow me to achieve any of my urgent weekend work to-dos today - I hope that, in the light of that, creating this follow-up thread isn't bad form. I just thought other people may want to continue discussing these issues (mainly, now, the redefinition of woman, and statistical trends re. women globally), and I'd definitely dip back in when the urge to procrastinate overcomes me next. No worries, of course, if people think we did it all to death on the old thread - we were fairly thorough, methinks(!), so can also just let Good Faith Discussion #2 rapidly fade into Mumsnet obscurity. 😀

I would tend to agree that surgery and hormones would be better reserved for trans adults and not children.

So you would let a male child sincerely believe from the age of five that he is a girl, and then when he gets to the age of 12 tell him that he must wait until he has gone through puberty, undergone irreversible physical changes which will make him look like a man and not a woman, and reached the age of legal majority before he is allowed to access hormones and surgery?

Isn't that kind of... cruel?

I would disagree that social transition is necessarily irreversible. I can understand that there are certainly likely to be instances of something similar to what you describe @Nellodee, but I do think this can be avoided with the right approach, if a child is assured that deciding that they are not trans at any point is also a perfectly valid outcome.

But these are children who, as I explained in my long post, don't really understand what a girl is and what a boy is. If they don't understand something so basic, how do you expect them to understand the nuances of transitioning?

This is a recipe for very confused children.

I have asked before how we teach children about reproduction without reference to biological sex. IIRC that poster never did come back with an explanation, unless I missed it.

Not only confused but inherently fragile and unable to deal with the harsher edges of reality and of other people's perceptions and responses.

This is why there tends to be such an authoritarian/totalitarian edge to most of the edicts around affirmation/pronouns etc. If you don't affirm or validate the trans child or adult is so fragile they may self harm or even kill themselves.

@SpookyFBI

I don't think that you are going to like this answer, but to me the difference between teaching children about homosexuality and being trans is this.

In being trans, there is no point at which you can actually be what you say you want to be, biologically speaking. Actually being homosexual is easy, you just have to say you want to have sex with members of the same sex and live your life that way, done. Being trans means a form of continued permanent dissonance - this might be the best way for someone to live and they might alter their body to get as close as possible to how they want to be, but it is not the same as actually having a natal sex body. Therefore, on some level, when you are trans you have to acknowledge and accept this difference because otherwise you are living in delusion. Reproductive capacity is an obvious one that can't be changed, but also, if you are a trans man, the best penis they can make you is not going to get erect without being pumped, or if you are a trans woman you are never going to have periods, have a genuine menopause, have a vagina with a functioning clitoris (and you may have a vagina that you need to dilate several times a day, or if you are a child on puberty blockers you may not have sufficient penile tissue so they may have to make a vagina from your bowel, which may smell). Other people may prefer not to date someone that they don't understand to be fully the sex they are attracted to, or cannot even hope to have children with. If you don't pass well, you will be aware that others do not see you as your preferred sex, or you may have to spent vast amounts of energy trying to pass as well as you can. You may need to acknowledge your biological sex in getting appropriate healthcare. None of these points are intended to be hateful to trans people and many trans people will find a way of living that accommodates the difference well, but the differences are facts. It is not possible to fully change sex - it's an approximation.

As such, it is not reasonable to present this pathway to children as something that is anything other than a compromise, because it is otherwise not possible to give informed consent to a pathway (which includes affirmation, which makes it very hard to announce that the identity you shouted really loudly about just isn't you any more and frequently leads to transition in kids who might not otherwise - the Cass review spells this out) without understanding all the facts.

Adult trans people don't want trans to be presented as a "least worst" or compromise option, because it sounds unfun and disempowering and disrespectful of trans people, but truthfully that is what it should be presented to children as, because anything other than that is dishonest and cannot form the basis of informed consent, because there are disadvantages in changing your body and there are also disadvantages involved in identifying as a sex other than your natal sex because there will be experiences that are talked about by others of your desired sex and not open to you.

Children need to be told that it is difficult being trans, because it is impossible for it to be anything more than a compromise, but that trans people should be respected and valued for finding a way to live their lives that is best for them. Instead, they are told fairy tales about what is possible and then told that if they are trans people might hate them, which just creates a sense of struggle that is very attractive to the teenage brain that is still trying to distance itself from being a child and trying to find independence of its parents.

I don't hate trans people. I would be deeply concerned for my child if they decided that they were trans because the messaging really encourages them to believe that anything that isn't possible for them is as a result of prejudice and this really isn't a healthy place to be. I would also worry hugely about the medical side of things, for the reasons @BonfireLady suggests, but I would love them and try to muddle through nonetheless.

The reason I ask Spooky about whether you knew any adolescents that have trans identities is because I and many others, I am sure that Bonfire knows plenty as well, do know them. Many of us have people we love who are adolescents who are working through these issues. And like Bonfire, many of us have been reading and researching this for years now.

So, please, DO ask questions here. It is very likely that we have answers and links at our finger tips. This is exactly what brought me here to this board. Searching for answers about our children.

And if you have children, you will know that many of these children WILL find social transition very difficult to reverse. And that is also largely due to the other issues that they are also dealing with at the same time. Such as ASD, anxiety, trauma etc.

For instance, I keep saying this across threads, in my teen's friend group there were 5 out of the 7 of them. What are the chances, eh? Every single one of those 7 suffered fragile mental health by the end of 12 months, but the five were particularly fragile. And knowing each of them they came from the backgrounds that the clinicians and Dr Cass has noted. Divorced families, parents with significant health issues such as cancer treatment, siblings with trauma, social services intervention. Issues no parent wants their children to have to deal with in an ideal world. And this is before I can go through and pick the teens with ASD and ADHD or with significant anxiety.

The issues around children are very complex and I don't think many people who start to pull the string to see where it goes initially understand this complexity. And if you don't understand the complexity or you, general you, are simply repeating the views of very heavily invested influencers, medicos, or allies, you will miss the complexities. Because those people make it all sound so simple when it is not.

Remember too, that so much of the treatment of children is now tied up with that 'suicide' misrepresentation. The one I pointed out that even the Pysch org of the USA was perpetuating by falsely strengthening conclusions that were weak and were not properly investigated from an incentivised poll.

That misrepresentation is used to silence people and used to enable the story that it IS simple and that all treatments are reversible etc be spread. Even social transition.

Maybe though, you can articulate why you think that social transition is fully reversible even in some people.

Not just reproduction.

Take information about cervical screening being addressed to "people with cervixes", for example. This is being done for the benefit of mostly young, privileged white women who grew up at a time when they were taught clear and factual information about the human body, who understand that they have a cervix, and who believe that the word "women" does not include them because they identify as something else.

Already, today, this language is confusing for women with low educational attainment, learning disabilities or poor English. These women could potentially die because they don't realise that information aimed at "people with cervixes" is relevant to them.

But what happens when the generation currently NOT being taught clear and factual information about the human body grow up and need cervical screening? Surely they'll be even less sure about whether they are a person with a cervix or not?

i will freely admit that I don’t fully understand exactly what gender identity is or how it works. In fact I see this as one of life’s big questions. Not just in terms of gender identity, but identity itself. What is it, how is it formed, to what extent is it influenced by upbringing or genetics? These are big unanswered questions that I find fascinating and am interested in understanding, which is why I want to seek to understand other perspectives on these things.

I understand if you will take that as proof that it must not exist, but I don’t see it that way. I suppose I will go back to the religious analogy. A Christian may have certainty about life’s big questions, feeling confident that they can find the answers in the bible. They may ask the Athiest, what are the answers to these questions in your philosophy? And the Athiest will say that they don’t have answers to these questions, that these questions may not even be answerable. I don’t think that the Christian’s certainty about these questions means that they are necessarily correct, and the Atheist’s uncertainty means they are necessarily incorrect. In fact, I would tend to think the opposite. With all of the complexities in the world and in humanity, how can such a simple and straight forward philosophy that lacks any nuance - boys have a penis and girls have a vagina - really be all there is to it?

Spooky, I don’t think anyone here is saying sex = identity?

My take is sex = sex, it can’t change and it’s a cruel lie to say it can change.
identity is individual, not well suited to labels and everyone has their own preferences and characteristics, and that these may be fluid - and within the law, that’s all fine

Absolutely this.

If one of my kids turned out to be trans, and despite the fact that I refused to affirm them as a child, their gender dysphoria persisted into adulthood, I would do my best to support them. I would, however, be deeply sad and worried about the fact that they would never have a normal life.

There is no doubt in my mind that it is in their best interests not to be trans, and I would do my utmost to discourage any belief that they might be, especially at a young age.

This isn't because I hate trans people. It's because I think being trans actually seems like a very hard, miserable way to live your life, and I don't want my kids to go through that.

I don't feel the same way about being gay. I know many gay people who are living happy, fulfilled lives, and I wouldn't be upset if one of my kids told me they were gay.

Wait... what?

So you want gender identity to be taught in schools even though you don't understand what it is?

Do you think the people teaching it understand what it is?

Re this "point [you]'ve been really stewing about".

There is a really simple answer to your question about gay vs trans. As follows.

If a man sincerely says he is attracted to men, what he says must be true. This follows from the meaning of 'attracted'. (To feel attracted is to be attracted.)

However, if a man, no matter how sincerely, says he is a woman, what he says cannot be true; he must be mistaken. This follows from the meaning of 'man' and 'woman'.

Now, I know, Spooky, you think 'woman' might mean something other than what it actually does mean. Nevertheless, I'm sure you can follow the above. That's what most of us think is the case.

This is why we don't want gender identity taught as fact, while we do want same-sex-attraction taught as fact; it's because same-sex-attraction is a fact, while gender identity is at best a mistake.

This is, if you think about it, very similar to why we want, say, the existence of salamanders, but not the existence of angels to be taught to our children as fact. (Even though we are well aware some people think angels do really exist).

By all means, tell children, "some people think angels exist" ... "some people think gendered souls exist" ... But also, "most people think there are no such things as angels" ... "most people think there are no such things as gendered souls".

Hmm?

That's a really good post @bigbabycooker

So much of the narrative presented to these kids is cloud cuckoo land. As you rightly point out, to be 'trans' is a constant compromise

https://ceriblack.substack.com/p/guest-post-from-lauren-black

I came across this woman on Twitter and this is an awesome, moving read. This is what it is to tackle the hard issues head on.

One of my concern is that legislation and policies are being changed on the basis of a term which can't be defined even by those who are proponents of it.

I would agree that the push to accept trans women as women would generally come under an esteem/self actualisation level of need. I think it may dip into physical safety in the case where a trans person has been rejected by their family, friends and community and could potentially sink into depression and suicide due to a lack of community and support. I think it also dips into safety in cases where genuine transphobia and harassment of trans people becomes socially acceptable, and trans people could become the target of violence. To me this risk puts it on equal priority to the safety issues that have been brought up by others around single sex spaces (many of these issues I do agree are problems that should be solved, I just don’t agree that single sex spaces are necessarily the best solution).

There are other people who can "sink into depression and suicide" over all this. The wives and children of older men who transition in later life. The parents and siblings of (usually) men who transition as adults; and several other examples. When an adult feels that transition may be for them, many people are affected, because our identities are formed in relationship. If someone changes their ‘gender identity’ they nearly always require everyone around them to change too. This is desperately difficult for many of us - see ‘transwidows’.

Siblings and parents also struggle hugely with this, but it is very hard for us to speak about it for fear of estrangement from our loved ones. The transgender movement sees any scepticism about gender ideology as ‘transphobia’ and ‘bigotry’. But I see my autistic adult son as vulnerable to a ‘religious’ movement that I am not permitted to describe accurately. He is undoubtedly unusually ‘feminine’ for a man. He is a lovely caring sensitive man; I suspect there are people who don’t think a man like him is possible! He is now socially transitioning and considering cross sex hormones. I believe he is under subtle societal pressure to conform to what he may see as the logical path for him. It breaks my heart. I am desperate as I see him on a path to self harm, because society says he is a woman because he is ‘feminine’.

So @SpookyFBI, what gender identity do I have?

I mean, if I believe Jesus was the son of God others would recognise me as a Christian even regardless of how I identify.

But if I have a vagina, don't really mind having a vagina, but don't really conform or particularly value female stereotypes, what am I? (This is where I am - I like my female body, for having given me my kids, like having sex as a female :), but I can really take or leave much of the stuff that is expected of me as a female person - I prefer sport to shopping etc, if I could wear tracksuit bottoms for the rest of my life I would).

I would genuinely say that is up to you to decide.

Imagine this conversation during a maths lesson in school:

Teacher: Two plus two equals four. Usually. Except sometimes two plus two equals something other than four.

Student: Why?

Teacher: Because of hoshposh.

Student: What is hoshposh and why does it sometimes make two plus two not equal four?

Teacher: I don't know. But it does.

If you think the above exchange is utter nonsense and should not be taught in schools, how can you support teachers telling students that men have penises and women have vaginas, except sometimes, because of gender identity, but no one knows what gender identity is?

how can such a simple and straight forward philosophy that lacks any nuance - boys have a penis and girls have a vagina - really be all there is to it?

It's all there is to sexual difference.
This is a fantastic article, it explains so much

https://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/from-sex-to-gender-modern-dismissal-of-biology/

It's not all there is to being human.

But it's interesting how you've phrased it. This movement speaks to a desire for transcendence that is so similar to the major religions.

How can we just be sexed bodies? We want to believe in the reality of transcendent souls, in which we find our 'true' being.

In which case gender identity is personal, up to the individual, and no two people have the same one, right?

I suppose the same way I can say that the double split experiment should be taught in physics class, even though it is not completely understood.

But there is no such thing as hoshposh.

And no evidence that there is any such thing as gender identity.

even though it is not completely understood.

I'm not familiar with the experiment, but I presume some of it is understood, right? And a teacher would be able to clearly identify what's understood and what isn't?

How would you apply that to gender identity?

”I would genuinely say that is up to you to decide.”

I would genuinely ask why any law or policy should be changed that is there to protect women and children based on such a decision?

And I think that I have answered your question on trans vs gay below. It's not hateful to help your children to understand what options are genuinely available to them (I had a friend who wanted to be a doctor but was never going to get into medical school on grades- his parents supported and helped him to get the best science grades he could and with retakes so that he had more options open to him but never never strayed into actually telling him he would be a doctor if he worked really hard. Having got those grades that were fine but not good enough for that path, they gently encouraged him to find other things that he could be. He is now a different healthcare professional and is very successful - he was right that he should work in healthcare, but being a doctor wasn't possible for him. This is what parenting a teen or young adult looks like - accepting your child and helping them to deal with the disappointment of realising that there are options that are not actually open to them)

I would also ask what it is about gender identity you think should be taught in school in practical terms Spooky . What do you see as being important in the curriculum to be taught?

Perhaps you need to get down to the specifics because I believe that theoretical discussion without any understanding of the specifics is not going to help anyone understand the issues. It will keep the discussion superficial and allow the false belief that it is all very simple to continue.