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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Genuinely willing to discuss in good faith

1000 replies

beachcitygirl · 27/04/2023 17:40

Hello.

This is a thread for those who are uncomfortable with black and white and less than civil discourse around self id.

I welcome those with different views but I don't on this thread welcome those who only want to state their firm settled opinion without nuance or discussion that self id is absolutely wrong.

It's my view that there is no point in discussion if mind firmly made up.
I'll respect your legal right to that view but there's not much point chatting about it and pissing each other off.

There are plenty threads of gc women hoping to create more gc women and that's fine.

I'd like this to be a different space. A place for anyone with genuine questions, discussion points and where we all try to be civil and attempt to answer each other in good faith. Anyone who is unsure, let's talk:

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
34
OttersMayHaveShiftedInTransit · 29/04/2023 11:01

A nuanced approach would consider their individual risk level, which would incorporate a very detailed profiling of them and their history by experts to make the best decision about their accommodation.

In this paradise of nuance would the female women be given any consideration? Would those who have previously been victims of male violence and/or sexual assault be given a hall pass and allowed not be locked.in a cell with a male bodies person or is the nuance all for the trans person?
Would small, weak old men who are not trans be allowed to apply for a cushy billet in the female estate because they aren't a deemed to be a danger to women but could be hurt themselves in the male estate?
If some men are able to access female spaces how do decide which ones? And how do we get passed the 'you can't ask that' wall if we say only GRC holders, only post ops etc.

Thelnebriati · 29/04/2023 11:02

A nuanced approach would consider their individual risk level, which would incorporate a very detailed profiling of them and their history

It sounds great. It conveniently ignores the reality that the majority of sexual offenses are not prosecuted. So it makes a mockery of safeguarding and risk assessment.

Helleofabore · 29/04/2023 11:04

suggestionsplease1 · 29/04/2023 10:58

There are certainly lots of interesting features in the data, and again I am not stating that correlation is causation.

I am stating that policies of self ID exist in countries that are doing well for women across a broad range of measures.

They are clearly doing things right, aren't they?

After their excellent track record of doing so well for women, why do you think they have suddenly got it so wrong on just this one issue?

That seems a bit improbable, doesn't it?

And what is your evidence it is going wrong for them, when the big picture continues to show they are doing well for women?

Your interpretation of these multi-variate statistics and proposing them as any measure of self id is flawed. This measure, from statistica no less (I take them with a grain of salt and recheck all their stats against original source anyway), doesn’t say what you seem to desperately want it to say.

Your big picture is missing significant variables. Plus it is being skewed due to free services.

Waitwhat23 · 29/04/2023 11:06

suggestionsplease1 · 29/04/2023 10:58

There are certainly lots of interesting features in the data, and again I am not stating that correlation is causation.

I am stating that policies of self ID exist in countries that are doing well for women across a broad range of measures.

They are clearly doing things right, aren't they?

After their excellent track record of doing so well for women, why do you think they have suddenly got it so wrong on just this one issue?

That seems a bit improbable, doesn't it?

And what is your evidence it is going wrong for them, when the big picture continues to show they are doing well for women?

Again, what about Malta? Has Self ID but really low down on that list. They're clearly not doing things right.

ArabeIIaScott · 29/04/2023 11:06

I have looked at that Statistia table, but I can't see any way of finding information on what they are basing these measures on. Is it something one needs to have an account in order to access?

Helleofabore · 29/04/2023 11:07

ArabeIIaScott · 29/04/2023 11:00

I am stating that policies of self ID exist in countries that are doing well for women across a broad range of measures.

They are clearly doing things right, aren't they?

That statement is so vague as to be meaningless. What I'd want to see is specific research on the various areas that women have concerns about.

But as has been pointed out - by a UN Special Rapporteur, no less - if a country has self ID then the issues may be rendered invisible - for example, if crimes are recorded according to self ID then assaults from transwomen on women in single sex female spaces will not be visible.

I'd be very concerned that self ID might paint a hugely distorted picture, based on unreliable data.

excellent point

Hepwo · 29/04/2023 11:08

I don't expect there's anything a woman here could say that would shift you off your lofty seat atop your pile of statistics suggestionsplease1.

You are not looking for suggestions really are you?

This is just the normal disregard we all recognise.

Iceland is the size of town in the UK.

The population increased by 2,570 in the fourth quarter of 2022. The population of Iceland at the end of the fourth quarter 2022 was 387,800, 199,840 males, 187,840 females and non-binary/other were 130. The population increased by 2,570 from the previous quarter.20 Jan 2023

130 non binary/other.

I love how other is a category. I thought othering was bad.

Waitwhat23 · 29/04/2023 11:08

ArabeIIaScott · 29/04/2023 11:06

I have looked at that Statistia table, but I can't see any way of finding information on what they are basing these measures on. Is it something one needs to have an account in order to access?

Tried to get into it also but you need to sign up for a free account which asks for an absurd amount of personal information in order to view some statistics.

ArabeIIaScott · 29/04/2023 11:11

Helleofabore · 29/04/2023 11:07

excellent point

It was a point made by Reem Alsalem, I think. Although I am struggling to find a record of the letter she sent to the Scotgov consultation.

'Reem Alsalem is an independent consultant on gender issues, the rights of refugees and migrants, transitional justice and humanitarian response. She has consulted extensively for United Nations departments, agencies and programmes such as UN-Women, OHCHR, UNICEF and IOM, as well as for non-governmental organizations, think tanks and academia. Previously, she worked as an international civil servant, serving with the UNHCR in thirteen countries. During her service, she has planned, implemented, and monitored programs that served to protect persons that were survivors of gender-based violence, particularly women and girls.'

NotHavingIt · 29/04/2023 11:12

suggestionsplease1 · 29/04/2023 10:50

Ok, for an example.

A broad brush gender self ID based approach that considered no other issues could house dangerous transwomen alongside women in prison accommodation.

A nuanced approach would consider their individual risk level, which would incorporate a very detailed profiling of them and their history by experts to make the best decision about their accommodation.

Of course a broad brush gender / sex approach alone is not sufficient. There are of course very dangerous female prisoners who have to be accommodated carefully in accordance to their risk to others as well.

So careful individual profiling above and beyond gender/sex is appropriate when considering prison accommodation.

" Risk" is not just about overt violenvce, but about the invasion of women's privacy and the dignity of their sex - in fact, this is the primary reason for single sex spaces.

What I genuinely don't understand is why you are so avid and determined to permit males into women's spaces? Can you explain?

What is wrong with third spaces, services and categories and just retaining the identity of being a transwoman - why does it have to be 'woman'?

Helleofabore · 29/04/2023 11:14

I am suspect of any poster who plonks down links to studies and statistics and cannot adequately discuss what they have linked up. Suggestions, you have done this numerous times now. It makes you simply appear to have no understanding how the conclusions of the studies or the statistics you link are derived.

Do you do this because you don’t actually understand what you post, or do you just think people reject them because they are ignorant?

Helleofabore · 29/04/2023 11:16

For instance, I went through once and read all the studies you linked and you couldn’t construct one insightful comment about them.

You plonk down links with absolutely fuck all discussion about what the linking ‘evidence’ means and the relevance. And you have used this statistica measure before. It doesn’t stand up and you cannot defend it, so why bother continuing to post it?

NotHavingIt · 29/04/2023 11:16

suggestionsplease1 · 29/04/2023 10:58

There are certainly lots of interesting features in the data, and again I am not stating that correlation is causation.

I am stating that policies of self ID exist in countries that are doing well for women across a broad range of measures.

They are clearly doing things right, aren't they?

After their excellent track record of doing so well for women, why do you think they have suddenly got it so wrong on just this one issue?

That seems a bit improbable, doesn't it?

And what is your evidence it is going wrong for them, when the big picture continues to show they are doing well for women?

Your version of. "doing well" seems to be tied in quite heavily with Neo-Liberalism and Capitalism as the primary measures of success and equality. It is all about economics, working to pay the mortgage and so on.

Waitwhat23 · 29/04/2023 11:19

ArabeIIaScott · 29/04/2023 11:11

It was a point made by Reem Alsalem, I think. Although I am struggling to find a record of the letter she sent to the Scotgov consultation.

'Reem Alsalem is an independent consultant on gender issues, the rights of refugees and migrants, transitional justice and humanitarian response. She has consulted extensively for United Nations departments, agencies and programmes such as UN-Women, OHCHR, UNICEF and IOM, as well as for non-governmental organizations, think tanks and academia. Previously, she worked as an international civil servant, serving with the UNHCR in thirteen countries. During her service, she has planned, implemented, and monitored programs that served to protect persons that were survivors of gender-based violence, particularly women and girls.'

I can only easily find the letter she sent to the UK Government. I suspect her letter to SG must be in the long response consultation document - I will have a look later.

ArabeIIaScott · 29/04/2023 11:19

Ah, thanks Waitwhat. The record of the consultation is quite tortuous.

NotHavingIt · 29/04/2023 11:21

Using Sweden as an example of where women are seen to be 'equal' it seems that has not stopped violence against women and girls. in fact this violence has been rising in recent years.

Sweden also decided to criminalise the buying of sex - as a way to stop the exploitation of women - though many liberal feminists seem also to be very keen on 'sex positivity' and legalising prostitution, along with their demmand sfor gender self id.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56977771

Flemingsberg

Safe Sweden faces up to wave of women's killings

A spate of deaths reignites a debate about domestic violence in a country praised for gender equality.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56977771

ArabeIIaScott · 29/04/2023 11:26

Ah, hold on:

Contains a link to pdf copy of Reem Alsalem's letter.

https://twitter.com/UNSRVAW/status/1595336668499902464

'General Recommendation No. 28 makes it clear that in complying with their obligations to eliminate discrimination against women under article 2 of CEDAW, State parties should “provide for mechanisms that collect relevant sex-disaggregated data, enable effective monitoring, facilitate continuing evaluation and allow for the revision or supplementation of existing measures and the identification of any new measures that may be appropriate”. It is concerning, therefore that data in Scotland is generally not collected based on sex, but solely on gender, in a number of areas, despite the clear need for both, and that there has been a reluctance on the part of the Scottish Government to ensure this happens.'

I think she expanded on this in verbal evidence-gathering session, though.

https://twitter.com/UNSRVAW/status/1595336668499902464

Catiette · 29/04/2023 11:28

As a lurker-becoming-poster, I wanted to say how fascinating and, ironically, uplifting I've found this thread.

Like so many of us, in the face of suggestions that views like mine constitute some kind of bigotry or are shaped by an echo chamber, I keep reviewing and reflecting to check myself - and threads like this honestly just reaffirm my perspective.

I sometimes carry out this little thought experiment, by imagining someone I know and respect coming on to FWR to assess this hotbed of hatred I've been reading, and skimming whichever thread happens to be at the top of the page. The result's usually the same. Yes, sometimes it includes views I disagree with, or I wouldn't say myself, and occasionally, there's something that I find really distasteful - comments I think my imaginary reader may be a bit shocked by - but mostly, there's just reasoned argument, deep empathy for trans people and good-natured respect for other posters. And there's such a wealth of knowledge and ideas (which is part of what hooked me in the first instance, every other thread sending me scurrying excitedly off to google a multitude of different areas - biology, psychology, ethics, logic, statistics...)

And re: statistics. Other people have responded to suggestions more persuasively than I could, and I know statisticians walk among us (imagine tones of deep awe - I just googled principles of statistical data collection, and fled back here in terror at the weird symbols...) But - really? That argument that outcomes for women have improved most in countries where what a woman is isn't clearly defined, and therefore we don't need to define women?! I mean, really?! And then the assumption that the inclusion of males would be too negligible to corrupt data, so that's all OK then, and to hell with defining clear terms in the first instance?! I was struggling through a scary handout on "reliability, validity and credibility" when I realised claims like this are just too absurd in their own right to stand up, and stopped.

That's the trend that I see in these threads I present to an imaginary, suspicious reader. People thinking about big issues, formulating complex arguments, choosing the right words to express them... and, then, set against that, as often as not, posts like the OP's.

As per, I scoured them in the hope of some interesting arguments, and really could only find some confused reasoning and presumptions of "hate" and vitriol. I found it disturbing how sincerely they seemed to believe that everything other posters were saying was motivated purely by hateful prejudice and a desire to provoke. OK, the flood of questions must have been overwhelming, and responses were direct shading into strongly worded - but that was what they'd asked for: debate! Hateful it wasn't. It left me thinking - again, as keeps happening - that they were either hypocritical as heck, or genuinely so steeped in this ideology that even for women to ask them that essential question on which all this hangs was, to them, indisputable evidence of bigotry. If nothing else, the stark contrast between the kind of aggressive language used in their own posts and the words of those they were describing gave the lie to that.

Interactions like this encapsulate what scares me most about this movement: this conviction that individual subjectivity is paramount, distorting strong arguments on a complex issue into hateful prejudice and thereby simply shutting down any possibility of meaningful communication. Democratic society needs a genuine (not just professed) assumption of good faith, shared terms to describe our world, and, yes, rigorous data collection based on clearly defined criteria. These are basic principles that shouldn't need explaining or justifying! So, no, I think, whatever the statistical arguments, the suggestion that we simply don't define the term woman in data collection or otherwise is a manifestation of a wider trend that is actively dangerous, that we see play out in threads like this.

And, speaking of misinterpretation, and as a consummate lurker - it was just about cake. Just cake. That's all it was.

Catiette · 29/04/2023 11:35

It doesn't sound too uplifting from the above, does it? Ended up waxing lyrical - tend to use posts to formulate own views, end up going ooooon, then re-posting afterwards with something more concise.

I just mean, I found it uplifting to read all the careful queries, patient explanations, and messages of support and encouragement to the OP - especially from ArabellaScott - despite the tone of their own posts.

It says a lot about the people on here, reassures me I'm on a good "team", and gives me hope.

Waitwhat23 · 29/04/2023 11:37

ArabeIIaScott · 29/04/2023 11:26

Ah, hold on:

Contains a link to pdf copy of Reem Alsalem's letter.

https://twitter.com/UNSRVAW/status/1595336668499902464

'General Recommendation No. 28 makes it clear that in complying with their obligations to eliminate discrimination against women under article 2 of CEDAW, State parties should “provide for mechanisms that collect relevant sex-disaggregated data, enable effective monitoring, facilitate continuing evaluation and allow for the revision or supplementation of existing measures and the identification of any new measures that may be appropriate”. It is concerning, therefore that data in Scotland is generally not collected based on sex, but solely on gender, in a number of areas, despite the clear need for both, and that there has been a reluctance on the part of the Scottish Government to ensure this happens.'

I think she expanded on this in verbal evidence-gathering session, though.

I don't think Reem Alsalem submitted a response to the GRR consultation itself but wrote a letter to the UK Government, just before she was finally invited to speak to the Scottish Government -

forwomen.scot/05/12/2022/united-nations/

NotHavingIt · 29/04/2023 11:39

I'm still waiting for suggestionsplease to respond, in good faith, to any one of my responses or questions.

I always get the feeling that you are not supposed to address certain issues - or ask certain questions - only the ones that the poster feels comfortable with.

DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry · 29/04/2023 11:42

suggestionsplease1

if there is a reasonable response to the issue of why so many countries who allow self ID are also performing the best for women in them

My reading has got me to this question, not to other people's replies, but in the case of Ireland it is because women as a sex-class have been abolished and transwomen (XY chromosome people, who have always been treated favourably versus XX people) are now counted as 'women'. Listen to the episodes of Paddy O'Gorman's latest Paddy's podcast to see just how the country is performing for XX women in need of care and support.

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