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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Caroline F - new arrest / harassment ?

1000 replies

catsrus · 27/04/2023 10:37

Caroline has just posted on twitter that the police were trying to force entry - WTF going on?

Three officers saying she has to go with them.

Three.

twitter.com/cf_farrow/status/1651514281471492096?s=46&t=rbPMHI1uvxUAiQC4E1EE3A

Caroline F - new arrest / harassment ?
OP posts:
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53
BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 01/05/2023 09:48

Datun · 01/05/2023 09:15

It you truly are a member of the Police you are currently bringing your profession into disrepute by making the Police look even worse than they already do.

Considering just how bad the police are that's quite an impressive feat. Still think its impressive that felix is never on duty when this type of thread starts

Datun · 01/05/2023 09:49

EveryWitchWaybutLoose · 01/05/2023 00:45

Thanks @DrLouiseJMoody you are such a staunch friend to Ms Farrow. I have a very tiny insight into the psychological stress of facing targeted transactivism (they demanded of my employer that I be made to change my views and stop teaching).

And I’m still agog at the total trouble standards of Twitter and the police. As you say, under the sustained pressure of harassment Ms Farrow has experienced over many years, no wonder she might be a bit sharp on occasion.

But she’s not the one crowing over the death of a woman, or talking about punching or slashing women, or wanting us to die in grease fires.

Indeed. And, as we all know, the process is the punishment.

Shelefttheweb · 01/05/2023 09:57

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 01/05/2023 09:48

Considering just how bad the police are that's quite an impressive feat. Still think its impressive that felix is never on duty when this type of thread starts

You think Felix might not be totally genuine? I’m shocked I tell you, shocked.

AutumnCrow · 01/05/2023 10:01

I don't think some of these chatbots are as good as their chaphandlers think they are.

OldCrone · 01/05/2023 10:02

Felix125 · 01/05/2023 09:29

Boiledbeetle

No. None of us can.......

So how can we judge what the police have done is right or wrong when none of us know what it is?

It maybe connected to the old stuff - and if it is, it should be an integral part of the enquiry. We should look at the whole picture - but if this current allegation is not linked to the old stuff in any way, then the old stuff won't be a part of it.

But at present - we just don't know.

We just don't know if its linked or not - so we can't really judge if the police were right or wrong to attend Caroline's address can we?

I think I can see what you're trying to do now Felix.

There are people on this thread who know Caroline personally and have spoken to her. Some of them may know what this recent visit from the police was about as she has been allowed to discuss this with them.

You are hoping that one of them will get so fed up of you saying 'But we don't know what this was about' that they will say something that should not be publicly disclosed.

I will report any further posts from you which appear to be aiming to do this.

We don't know. You don't know. The people who do know aren't allowed to discuss this in public. There is no need for you to comment further.

FictionalCharacter · 01/05/2023 10:21

Good spot @OldCrone

Datun · 01/05/2023 11:29

OldCrone · 01/05/2023 10:02

I think I can see what you're trying to do now Felix.

There are people on this thread who know Caroline personally and have spoken to her. Some of them may know what this recent visit from the police was about as she has been allowed to discuss this with them.

You are hoping that one of them will get so fed up of you saying 'But we don't know what this was about' that they will say something that should not be publicly disclosed.

I will report any further posts from you which appear to be aiming to do this.

We don't know. You don't know. The people who do know aren't allowed to discuss this in public. There is no need for you to comment further.

Absolutely. This must be the fifth or sixth thread where this particular poster's comments have come across as attempts to provoke women. The quite ridiculous one-track strand of 'no one knows, no one knows, no one knows, you don't know what you're talking about' becomes very obvious, after a while.

It's not a comment that needs to be made more than once, obviously.

Boiledbeetle · 01/05/2023 11:48

Datun · 01/05/2023 11:29

Absolutely. This must be the fifth or sixth thread where this particular poster's comments have come across as attempts to provoke women. The quite ridiculous one-track strand of 'no one knows, no one knows, no one knows, you don't know what you're talking about' becomes very obvious, after a while.

It's not a comment that needs to be made more than once, obviously.

And considering yesterday after admitting they hadn't done any research and then being given the link of where to go for all the information, he spent longer on here repeating the same thing over and over than the time it would have taken to go and read the frigging information.

Nicely proving to those that are lurking that he isn't actually interested in discussing the actual subject the thread is about and the injustice being shown to Caroline.

As usual it's just whataboutery.

But its nice Felix admitted he can't be bothered to read up and find out why us women are so sick of this shit.

Cherrywoo · 01/05/2023 11:57

Felix125 · 01/05/2023 08:22

Cherrywoo
If you’re not going to read CF’s very open history that is available, then you have no right coming onto this thread and patronising women who know her history, and know how her vexatious litigator and other trolls have been putting her through hell for years.

But can you say with 100% certainty that this current allegation is 100% connected with this history?

Or is it something completely separate?

Can you say 100% that the reporting person this time is the same person as before?

I'll gladly read her history - but we can't say if this new complaint is definitely linked to it yet?

Given the very recent history added to the bigger picture, yes I would say with 100% certainty that this is the case here.

DrLouiseJMoody · 01/05/2023 12:19

OldCrone is exactly right.

We should assume that the complainant(s) are, if not posting, reading this thread, and will seize upon anything to cause difficulties. I know what tweets and KiwiFarms posts are at issue and can actually evidence she's not certain authors (but that's an issue for Surrey who are procedurally inept).

In general terms, silence should not be mistaken for inaction. I speak to Caroline most days and she's doing well given the ridiculous stress she's under. All I'm prepared to say is that I believe, based upon everything that I know and have experienced, she's a victim of some very determined, obsessive individuals who lack boundaries. I won't name anyone or make inferences for obvious reasons.

Also, I receive fairly frequent messages that seem innocent but, were I to answer, I may well find myself embroiled in more litigation. That's how I view Felix's posts - I strongly suggest that no-one replies, and certainly not if there is anything on here that connects you to your real life identity.

Louise

knittingaddict · 01/05/2023 13:42

What's with all the "we" in your posts felix?

You don't speak for the women on here. You are barely tolerated as it is.

Can't work out if you're deliberately poking us or very, very lacking in self awareness. Whatever it is, please leave off with the "we" stuff.

DerekFaker · 01/05/2023 13:42

Good advice Louise.

knittingaddict · 01/05/2023 13:43

AutumnCrow · 30/04/2023 17:31

Please stop feeding the sealion fgs

I know, I know. Apologies.

FGCPC · 01/05/2023 14:44

First time posting on this board (long time lurker).

In the interests of full transparency, I am a former police officer. I'm also gender critical. I think the police need to be very careful indeed about straying into ideological territory when part of their remit is to be apolitical. I think what started out as a well-intentioned attempt to reach out to the trans community and make them feel included and protected in the same way as attempts have been made with the gay and ethnic minority communities (successful or otherwise) should have had brakes applied when it became obvious that there was a conflict most people hadn't anticipated. That's another thread though.

My opinion is obviously just that - an opinion that others can take or leave.

As a former officer, reading some of these comments is difficult, although not unwarranted. The police have a huge problem with confidence among women at the moment. However, I also think Felix is getting a bit of an unfair bashing. The things he's saying about police procedures are true - and perhaps that's part of the problem.

The police and criminal evidence (PACE) act was written in 1984. It has been amended with other pieces of legislation since but remains the police 'bible'. It is the main piece of legislation governing police powers such as arrest and powers to search and seize.

There are also very stringent laws on interrogating people's online messages, both public and (especially) private.

At the same time it's increasingly difficult to link real-life identities to a social media account due to the increase in non-registered, non landline-based devices. For most online crimes the simplest and easiest way to link the account to the person is to seize the device suspected of being used to post that data. If you have a named suspect, the easiest way to do that is to arrest them and then search for and seize that device. The only other way you can search for and seize that device is by search warrant. That would require visiting a court to lay your grounds before a magistrate, which takes time. If you think your suspect is potentially aware they are being investigated/may try to cover their tracks or if there is any kind of threat/harm/risk associated, time is of the essence so most cops will go for the arrest route, given that the need to obtain evidence and prevent its destruction is an arrest necessity under PACE.

Now you could ask for the device voluntarily and avoid all of this, but I'm sure you could imagine the criticism if evidence is destroyed as a result and someone got harmed. Plus questions are always asked about how voluntary any consent is when not providing it could result in arrest...

All prosecutions require evidence beyond all reasonable doubt to be successful. This means that the police have to have hard evidence. For malicious communications etc this means the police must have those messages and link them to the sender (e.g. by showing they were sent by on that person's phone and that no one else used that device). Therefore this engineers exactly the sort of scenario we've seen before with CF where someone is arrested so police can seize devices.

Which leads to the next question - is it proportionate. Even if the arrest necessity is met, it may not be. But who decides? In some cases it's obvious, but add in a sensitivity issue (e.g. race, trans) and most cops will play safe and follow the policy guidance laid down by their chief officers. This is where dominant political discourse comes in.

When arrests are made as part of a pre-planned approach, an arrest strategy will be formulated. This should justify why it's necessary, what alternatives have been considered, discounted any why, and how it will be achieved, e.g. if flight or violence is a risk, how many officers will be needed to mitigate it? How many are required to transport (normally a minimum of 2) What contingency is in place if the door isn't answered voluntarily. I have to admit to being surprised, given the history, that CF wasn't subject to senior oversight pre-arrest (perhaps she was or has been post arrest). We'll never know. Sub justice rules mean the police find it nearly impossible to release information which would explain their actions in advance of a trial. By the time they can, usually they've been judged already and no one cares to read the explanation and consider if it changes their mind.

As a class, women suffer more than men. That's undeniable. That does not mean we can conclude all women are victims or that all police are corrupt any more than we can conclude that all trans people are innocent victims. Every case has to be treated on its own merits or it's a knee-jerk reaction that becomes the very thing it's trying to fight against.

Based on what I know about CF in the past, do I think this could be a vexatious complaint? Yes. Does that mean I don't think she should be investigated? No, that would depend on what exactly the allegation was, how credible it was and the evidence required to prove it. Not investigating CF because she has been vexatiously targeted before and therefore must be innocent is as biased as assuming she's guilty because she's a Christian. That's a very slippery slope and one women will bear the brunt of no matter who it initially favours. What should happen instead is that vexatious complainants should be dealt with robustly so that it does not keep happening. However, the matter of beyond all reasonable doubt will again rear its head and let many of them get away with it (especially if they claim no malicious intent but genuine grievance). For me, this is where the double standards for women really keep showing themselves. Not making misogyny a hate crime was hugely disappointing in my view. The explanation given by the law commission that it is already being dealt with through the VAWG strategy so to make it a hate crime would accidentally make it have enhanced status over other protected characteristics is laughable when you consider that's exactly what's been done with the race action plan.

The law is not really fit for purpose for this issue of our times. It's made worse by a police force that is NOT made up of a load of racists and misogynists (in my experience) but DOES have the effect of being misogynistic due to the legacy of legislation and a society that is.

Mycatwantsmedead · 01/05/2023 16:30

Surrey police have clearly been under pressure to act for a long time.

Caroline F - new arrest / harassment ?
nauticant · 01/05/2023 17:33

Good post @FGCPC.

I read till halfway through thinking "but what about proportionality?!" and then I saw your:

Which leads to the next question - is it proportionate.

and what follows.

One thing though I feel you've overlooked somewhat is that the poster Felix is like a moth to a flame when he can lecture women on threads where they're concerned about women who are suffering at the hands of a weaponised Police force acting on behalf of abusers. He appears to do his lecturing with considerable self-satisfaction.

Felix125 · 01/05/2023 18:48

OldCrone
I think I can see what you're trying to do now Felix.

There are people on this thread who know Caroline personally and have spoken to her. Some of them may know what this recent visit from the police was about as she has been allowed to discuss this with them.

You are hoping that one of them will get so fed up of you saying 'But we don't know what this was about' that they will say something that should not be publicly disclosed.

Not at all.

I'm not trying to provoke, or obtain information

I am trying to point out that we don't know why the police attended on this occasion - so can not say if they were right or not. @Boiledbeetle has acknowledged this on the previous page also..... "No. None of us can..." So its not just me that can see it.

This was in answer to the original post by the thread owner....."police were trying to force entry - WTF going on?" Answer - I don't know because I don't why they attended or if its connected to Caroline's previous incidents or a totally unrelated matter. We can guess & assume that it is - but I don't really know.

The complaint/allegation might very well be connected to the 'old stuff' that Caroline has had to endure - and if that's the case it becomes very relevant and must be including in the investigation. But we just don't know yet if it is.

Caroline obviously does and friends close to her will also - but then what is the reporting person saying, does it conflict with Caroline's account, what evidence can they offer - who knows. None of us do at this stage - so we can't really judge if the police were right or wrong to attend her address.

knittingaddict
What's with all the "we" in your posts felix?

Meaning us in here - in this discussion forum. Meaning me, you and everyone else reading (as far as I know). That we don't know the full story of this current allegation as we don't know what the reporting person has said to the police. Because so far, no one in here has said.

Cycleorrun · 01/05/2023 19:03

FGCPC's post is nuanced, well written and informative.

Felix125 · 01/05/2023 19:03

FGCPC

Excellent post

Can you can see my point that we can't judge the actions of the police on this occasion as we don't know what this current complaint/report is about?

And we don't know if its linked to Caroline's previous incidents or completely unrelated. If it is, then its completely relevant - but we just don't know yet.

And for the OIC - this will probably be just one of a number of jobs on their queue that needs sorting, especially if they are time bared. And they will doing so as quick as they can in among the incoming emergencies and other jobs that pose threat, harm & risk.

Not sure if you worked on emergency response, but you will be aware of the demands & pressures that exist there.

Felix125 · 01/05/2023 19:11

nauticant

One thing though I feel you've overlooked somewhat is that the poster Felix is like a moth to a flame when he can lecture women on threads where they're concerned about women who are suffering at the hands of a weaponised Police force acting on behalf of abusers. He appears to do his lecturing with considerable self-satisfaction.

I'm not at all - that's why I am saying that each report must be investigated properly. What ever the reporting person has said has to be judged on what evidence they can offer. If there is no evidence to support their report it should be screened out. If it can be shown that they have lied, they should be prosecuted for making a false report, contempt, wasting police time or similar. And harassment against the other person they have falsely accused.

But it has to be done properly and be able to be justified, evidenced and scrutinised. And if the police are at fault - it should be called out and those officers disciplined.

Cycleorrun · 01/05/2023 19:15

Felix
We understood that point perfectly well. It didn't need repeating. A reply along the lines of FGCPC 's post would have been an appropriate second post. Or preferably the first post!

Can you can see my point that we can't judge the actions of the police on this occasion as we don't know what this current complaint/report is about?

Felix125 · 01/05/2023 19:31

Cycleorrun
Felix
We understood that point perfectly well.......

You might - but other posters on here don't.

As I am still asked that I should read Caroline's 'old stuff' before I can judge why the police have attended on this occasion.

OldCrone · 01/05/2023 19:58

Felix125 · 01/05/2023 19:31

Cycleorrun
Felix
We understood that point perfectly well.......

You might - but other posters on here don't.

As I am still asked that I should read Caroline's 'old stuff' before I can judge why the police have attended on this occasion.

That doesn't mean that we didn't understand you the first time.

If you think that people didn't understand you, what do you believe to be the purpose of repeating the same thing over and over again?

Do you think people will understand better if you keep repeating yourself?

If people didn't understand the first time, they won't understand the second, third or hundredth time either, and they'll just get sick of you repeating yourself.

If they did understand the first time, they'll just get sick of you repeating yourself.

Do you understand now? (I'm in danger of doing the same thing with you, but I don't intend to say this again.)

FGCPC · 01/05/2023 20:06

Thanks for the positive comments I've had. I think these are conversations that need to be had in policing and get very frustrated that they do not.

The police need to do a LOT more to explain why they do the things they do. It's the processes used (often dictated by legislation and policy guidance) that often result in misunderstanding and loss of confidence, rather than individual officers' actions. A lot of complaints could be resolved with more transparency. Those that aren't might spark a genuine dialogue about what needs to be changed to make things better. At the moment though the majority of the general public have no idea about how the police work and make decisions. I think that's suited various governments very well as it's easier to scapegoat a few 'bad apples' and tinker than it is to really tackle change.

One point Felix125 makes which isn't given anywhere enough credence is officer workload. This is not an excuse but it does explain some problems. Even good people, when overworked and under stress, make errors of judgment.

Things may have changed since I left but speaking to former colleagues I suspect not. The average frontline response officer will be investigating between 5 and 15 ongoing crimes as well as attending 999 calls throughout their shift, which may result in more crimes being added to their tray. You are also highly likely to be interrupted when dealing with an investigation in order to answer a more pressing call. This can result in things being left undone (a box not ticked or a task to safeguarding not generated). It's a constant battle and one even the most conscientious cop struggles with.

With a backdrop of shifts and constantly late finishes, it's human nature to look for reasons to close crimes or deal with them in the quickest, easiest way. Even excellent officers do this but have the ability to spot those crimes where not making the right decision can mean someone comes to harm and so they spend more time in these. (Bear in mind that as a cop if you drop the ball on safeguarding you could go to prison, not just lose your job, in addition to knowing someone being hurt was your fault).

When you're dealing with possibly up to 30 incidents in the course of your working week, statistically speaking it's probably only a matter of time before you drop the ball on something. As a result, most police officers prioritise jobs where they perceive a high physical risk. Everything else, including burglary sadly, takes second place (the reasoning being that it's already happened and so inaction won't result in someone's head being kicked in). Online threats often fall into the 'everything else' category - unless it's a hate crime (policy usually demands these are dealt with within a set timeframe) OR where they think the suspect knows the victim and is in a position to carry out that threat.

This is why some online crimes seem to be dealt with more robustly than others but women always seem to be at the bottom of the pile.
Online rape threats from strangers are often overlooked because the risk of them being carried out is perceived as low and women don't benefit from the enhanced response dictated by hate crime policy.

Which takes me to stalking. The police have got better at online threats involving ex partners but there's still some way to go. This is partly symptomatic if wider society but also due to lack of time and underinvestment in police IT systems. There is no quick easy way to accurately see the previous history between partners. Yes, you may see how many incidents took place, but not the detail of who did what. To find out more takes time, often interrogating several systems, and if it involves one or more individuals in a different force area you have to apply to specially trained individuals! A lot of cops under pressure from the radio just deal with what they see immediately in front of them.

I and many like me bucked this trend because I cared. I took the time. As a result I rarely finished on time and frequently missed events with my family. But as the workload increases, fewer cops maintain this standard for the sake of their own mental health. Women will suffer as a result and we will see more cops going for low hanging fruit which means sometimes victims get treated as criminals while criminals get away with it.

Sorry for being so depressing!

Boiledbeetle · 01/05/2023 20:14

apologies for the royal we through this. I aware I'm not talking for all, but I'm sure many will agree with me.

Felix I'm going to assume that you post in good faith so...

the one thing you miss about all of this is you, it seems to me, are purely looking at these cases through the Police procedures aspect of it.

Totally get that. But what you seem to fail to appreciate is that most on here are looking at this through a how this woman is being affected lens.

We know there are police procedures. We would expect the Police to follow them.

But then we see the Police being used by activists to terrorise and harass women. We see the vile slurs and death threats aimed at women routinely ignored, or left to stand with no one seeming to ever get punished.

We see women being threatened and abused by masked thugs whilst the Police turn and walk away

We see the same police procedures you see being used differently depending on whether the person being accused is a man or a woman.

There is no issue with coming on a thread and you saying what the Police procedures is supposed to be.

But to just keep repeating the same thing and not being interested in the back story just makes you look like you are on a wind up.

If it was a thread entitled is this correct police procedure then have at it.

But we want to discuss more than that. As women we are concerned with the woman in the middle of this. So by all means tell us what police procedure is meant to be. But please look at the background to a case first. Maybe actually try to look at how we see this. And if you could possibly summon up even an iota of empathy for the women caught up in this shit that would be good.

I'm really not sure what you get out of saying the same thing over and over to a group of women who in the main stop reading your posts after the second one.

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