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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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11
Brefugee · 25/04/2023 17:02

I'm just going to leave it to you to look up the difference between "explicit" and "implicit". Never a mansplaner be, me.

I know. But you are failing to come up with receipts. I didn't know you were/are a man so I'll just leave an eyeroll and tell you not to be so sensitive. She doesn't hate men. She hates the ones who commit DV and I have no doubt she, as i do, think apologists for those are beneath contempt.

Brefugee · 25/04/2023 17:03

Folks - we've been Mansplained. What a surprise

Eddielizzard · 25/04/2023 19:20

I do find websites like "Counting Dead Women" interesting

Not the word that jumps to my mind...

Datun · 26/04/2023 00:47

sawdustformypony · 25/04/2023 14:12

It's a commonly used device used in writing and speeches. For example, I have sat in enough Court rooms and listened to judgements handed down. If the judge starts off the judgement praising one of the parties, you will often find after a few sentences there is a 'but' and then the Judges gives their reasons for finding for the other party.

Have I read the rest ? - yes, your right, she's very fond of "men" /s

God, its never ending isn't it? Why are some people so predictable.

This time it's two rules ticked.

9. Men always know the “real reasons” for everything women do and say.
10. The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.

Since Karen explictly says "I’m quite happy to talk with you, work in partnership with or alongside you, even count a select bunch of you amongst my friends", you can rest assured that she doesn't hate all men. Although I'm sure, in your case, she'd be happy to make an exception if you ask nicely.

Malvarrosa · 26/04/2023 02:46

sawdustformypony · 25/04/2023 14:12

It's a commonly used device used in writing and speeches. For example, I have sat in enough Court rooms and listened to judgements handed down. If the judge starts off the judgement praising one of the parties, you will often find after a few sentences there is a 'but' and then the Judges gives their reasons for finding for the other party.

Have I read the rest ? - yes, your right, she's very fond of "men" /s

Borrowing Occam's Razor, I think it's much more likely that she's referring to the old, persistent question of men participating in (and more critically at the moment, attempting to lead or define or speak on behalf of) feminism. The role of men in the movement(s) is not really much of an everyday issue or question for most feminists, but very often comes up from people curious or learning about feminism and/or wanting to criticise it without fully understanding it.

In radical feminist circles, it goes without saying that men cannot be feminists, although they can certainly be "allies", understand feminist analysis, study feminist theory, actively support some feminist goals, join with feminist groups in common cause.

Among Marxist, materialist, socialist feminists - I'd assume KIS falls somewhere in this group if she wanted to join UK Labour - there's more of a split with some feeling that the basic issue is class and all people should work together to overthrow the system and deal with sexism "after", and others feeling that class is largely overdetermined by other factors and sex is a critical one and so many feminists should focus on the larger issues through that particular lens.

Liberal feminists tend to see the class of men as a benchmark of where women should aspire to be, and can be all over the map on inclusion of men in feminism. What no feminist will do, though, is centre men in feminism at the expense of women in a political-economic-social-cultural system that structurally and systemically marginalises and exploits women and girls on the basis of sex. This has nothing to do with "hating" individual men or men as a class, it's just logic.

I'm not very familiar with KIS apart from knowing that some of her work is used in the HoC, so thanks for linking to her site. I'm actually surprised there's so much on there catering to men and male views (and/or perhaps to women who support her but feel the need to justify her work and views to individual men in their lives). Likely, also, she's received a lot of blowback on why she's centering women, so perhaps she's chosen to put it out there in writing rather than constantly explaining herself. She seems to have a pretty positive view of individual men and men as a class; why else would she take the time and space to write and showcase so much addressed TO men, almost all of it constructive?

Probably she IS a good fit for UK Labour - while she might not pass the (counterproductive at the moment) vetting process to become a Labour candidate, they'd likely do very well to listen critically to what she's saying.

BellaAmorosa · 26/04/2023 07:06

diflasu · 25/04/2023 12:28

This is very like the menopause stuff they came out with.

Yes there's an issue for some women and boys that do need tackling.

For menopausal women instead of focusing on improving training for HCP and access to services for women affected badly by menopause we'll place an additional burden on employers assume it's all women of this age and ignore concerns it may mean discrimination against women fairly common in childbearing years will continue longer now because of menopause concerns.

For boys - we'll assume it all boys that are the issue - not look at funding or expanding fund DV programs that help victims and their children break cycles, not look at sentencing or issues with courts and prosecutions or how police forces use or don't the powers they already have - we won't look at a social media influences or wider media or how they could be curbed or regulated no we'll insist schools deal with it while completely ignoring the huge issues and pressure school are crumbling under and fact the predominately female workforce is facing and trying to cope with disrespectful and sometime violent boys at the moment anyway.

It was on a previously thread described as back of the cab policy making.

It ignores Labour policy issues and tries to imply they care and are doing something with no concern their solutions are problematic.

None of this is me saying Torys have the solutions either.

Quite so. Focusing on the right issues but applying the wrong solutions. So typical, so frustrating. Labour's heart is often in the right place, but...

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