Boys will respect women under Labour ARticle in TImes

[Ramblingnamechanger]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boys-will-learn-respect-for-women-under-labour-dlc6vs3th
Comments are interesting!

thank you ohfibonacci for posting the share token and comments. Can you tell me how to do that. I am subscribed to the Times..is there a special button or something?

Boys should hear “first-hand” from victims of male violence and abuse, he said. The move would embolden boys to “call out” friends who acted in a misogynistic way.

I'm actually really concerned about this. The logic seems to be that if boys hear women talking about how they were abused and how it impacted them, they will 'get it'.
In reality many boys are already steeped in an abusive culture. Its too late for this to be a safe or realistic strategy. We're now at the stage of 'you don't go for counselling with someone who is abusing you'.

Where does it say she hates men?

I'm saying she hates men. Along the lines of "the Pope is a Catholic"

They haven't explained why they have excluded her.

You know what political parties are like, too scared to say boo to a goose. "hostility based on gender identity"? - they really mean hostility based on sex identity.

Apparently it's on the basis of 'gender identity', but as the Labour women's declaration rightly point out "Gender identity is a concept which has not been defined and has no basis in UK Law. How can it be used to justify exclusion?

Do they need to justify exclusion to any legal test? Are they an organisation that needs to provide any reason for decisions over membership?

I think your prejudice is showing.

I have indeed formed an opinion of KIS. In my opinion she hates men.

Be that as it may. That's not the reason they excluded her.

sawdustformypony And why wouldn’t many of us come to the point where we hate men? Given what we see is happening to women in every workplace, political group, voluntary organisation , and in the streets, on public transport and in the home ,is abuse harassment and sometimes rape and murder. How dare you malign a woman who has spent her time recording the truth of this.

You can hate whomever you want. See if I care.

I'd have thought KIS what be happy enough to be called a man-hater. If the cap fits, wear it.

A few days ago Starmer suspended Diane Abbott, an MP of 35 years, for her public comments regarding Tomiwa Owolade's Guardian article on the results of the EVENS survey on racial, ethnic, and religious discrimination in the UK. Starmer said: “In my view what she said was to be condemned, it was antisemitic. Diane Abbott has suffered a lot of racial abuse over many, many years … that doesn’t take away from the fact that I condemn the words she used..."

Will he apply equivalent standards to MPs, councillors, and Labour party activists who use misogynistic words - often outright slurs and dogwhistles - to reinforce and advocate for systemic prejudice, discrimination, and (in some cases) violence against women? When and if he (or a subsequent Labour leader) does, I might begin to see the Labour Party as a force capable of combating, opposing, and reducing migsogyny and misogynistic abuse and sex-based violence. But they can't do that effectively at the same time that they are institutionally ignoring and/or promoting it.

Ah yes, the 12th Rule of Misogyny:

“Women’s ability to recognize male behavior patterns is misandry”

utter piffle.

It is clear that she holds some men - perpetrators of VAWG - in utter contempt.
Don't you?

It's clear to me that she holds all men in contempt. I hold only the perpetrators in contempt.

This is very like the menopause stuff they came out with.

Yes there's an issue for some women and boys that do need tackling.

For menopausal women instead of focusing on improving training for HCP and access to services for women affected badly by menopause we'll place an additional burden on employers assume it's all women of this age and ignore concerns it may mean discrimination against women fairly common in childbearing years will continue longer now because of menopause concerns.

For boys - we'll assume it all boys that are the issue - not look at funding or expanding fund DV programs that help victims and their children break cycles, not look at sentencing or issues with courts and prosecutions or how police forces use or don't the powers they already have - we won't look at a social media influences or wider media or how they could be curbed or regulated no we'll insist schools deal with it while completely ignoring the huge issues and pressure school are crumbling under and fact the predominately female workforce is facing and trying to cope with disrespectful and sometime violent boys at the moment anyway.

It was on a previously thread described as back of the cab policy making.

It ignores Labour policy issues and tries to imply they care and are doing something with no concern their solutions are problematic.

None of this is me saying Torys have the solutions either.

Where does she say she hates all men?

I mean, I wouldn't blame her, but where does she say it?

@Ramblingnamechanger you just click on the top right button with the half a square and upwards arrow. It allows you to copy the link then you can paste it. I just screenshot the comments.

receipts or push off with that bollocks.
Maybe you imagine she hates men because you lack the wit to understand what she is actually saying? Maybe you don't actually listen/read what she says and rely on 2nd hand accounts of what she says/writes?

If you think that counting dead women is something that might make a woman hate men, don't you think it would be better to do something about the fact that 2 women a week are killed by men? often one they know very well. Or is it better to misunderstand and snipe from the sidelines?

sawdustformypony · Today 12:21

It's clear to me that she holds all men in contempt.

Have you got any examples of things she's said, which has led you to that conclusion?

She doesn't come out explicility and say she hates men. That would be too unacceptble for many. But it is implicit in what she writes. If you want an examples then try here. Doesn't this read like some one very happy to conflicate the crimes of some men with the 'class' of all men.

Hmm.

Yes, I’m one of those feminists who doesn’t want men in feminism, the type who doesn’t think men can be feminists. I’m quite happy to talk with you, work in partnership with or alongside you, even count a select bunch of you amongst my friends, but call you feminists: “Nah.”

That certainly doesn't suggest that she hates all men. Have you read the rest of it?

It's a commonly used device used in writing and speeches. For example, I have sat in enough Court rooms and listened to judgements handed down. If the judge starts off the judgement praising one of the parties, you will often find after a few sentences there is a 'but' and then the Judges gives their reasons for finding for the other party.

Have I read the rest ? - yes, your right, she's very fond of "men" /s

yes, I've read that. So which part, explicitly, does she say that she holds all men in contempt?

If you would just shove the #NAMALT where the sun doesn't shine and actually pay attention you might just learn something interesting.

I'm just going to leave it to you to look up the difference between "explicit" and "implicit". Never a mansplaner be, me.

Also re: the #NAMALT. Your demand is repulsed. I do find websites like "Counting Dead Women" interesting - mainly that the level of hatred that KIS must generate within herself must be exhausting. Poor thing, really when you think about it - corresive acid in a bottle and all that.

There have been similar ideas before, but what has happened in recent years is for the misogynistic males to self-identify as female and then be given free-reign to spout their abuse (and in many cases given a platform to do so).

Most of the boys I know do seem to respect women. (I’m a mum of girls, but friends children, and friends of daughters seem fine.)

Bit rude to point the finger at boys and young men. Painting them as the problem is real deflection. Labour needs to get its own house in order. Proper gender definitions, please. Real leadership opportunities in the party for women please. Allowing women to speak, etc.

Y'know what else is a "commonly used device"? Twisting women's words when those women say things that are both true and inconvenient. The Labour Party MO then, eg in respect of Duffield and LRM.

sawdustformypony

It's plain that Brefugee is asking you which words, explicitly, you think demonstrate hate for all men. It's plain that you think it's implicit in what KIS has written, as you are unable to provide an explicit example.

I'm just going to leave it to you to look up the difference between "explicit" and "implicit".

It's plain that Brefugee is asking you which words, explicitly, you think demonstrate hate for all men. It's plain that you think it's implicit in what KIS has written, as you are unable to provide an explicit example.

Ok... as you will readily appreciate, much of poor KIS's writing is directed against those wretched "men" - so a proper response will take some time to draft up. But I'm up for the challenge, but no holding your breath now.