Debate on Tran's and a comment about Kathleen Stock

[Hawkins003]

For all the knowledgeable mumsnetters
Who's correct and who's mistaken ?

This is how it started

#oxfess23322
Not gonna lie, #Oxhate to the Oxford Union hosting the "Gender Critical" Kathleen Stock later this term. As a trans guy who just wants to live his life with joy and is more than well aware of the increasing Western stripping and dehumanisation of trans rights, the last thing we need now is promotion of such people who actively push back against a minority who just want to live their lives, especially from such a prestigious university. Trans people are people, we are valid and we deserve respect and not being exposed to such bigotry

Then the response by one commenter was

I don't know much about the whole debate, but then what about the freedoms etc that have been won by certain genders now getting eroded ?

Then a person replied in two parts saying

That isn't really to do with transgender people just wanting their right to live as their desired gender- that's more to do with the increasing enforcement of toxic patriarchal ideas and rising fascistic tendencies of the Western world as a result of the weaknesses of democratic systems popular conservative governments and men such as Trump who then in turn bring along misogynistic allies who stay long after such leaders are gone. This in turn makes misogynists generally more confident to speak their actual mind. Karl Popper's Tolerance Paradox can also be inserted into this conversation

This was their second part

And the problem with this is that along with this number of people in politics with misogynist ideas comes a majority of misogynists in law making sectors- think the Supreme Court - that when harmful proposals such as the repeal of Roe Vs Wade are put through a Supreme Court vote, then the more likely that it is that such laws will go through. And the problem with such systems as the jury in the Supreme Court is that once they are elected or chosen, then they are there for the long term and can't be gotten rid of

This is nothing to do with the subject being discussed.

This is erroneous reasoning.

They've lumped a pile of other anti female stuff with their own anti female stance that men can be women. In order to obstufigate the argument. And blamed a woman for that. I think it's effectively a type of DARVO. Or victim blaming.

There's probably a technical debate term for it.

The second issue is that American politics are entirely different to U.K.

U.K. is much more pro choice and also has the nhs. But the anti woman stance that men are women remains.

That isn't really to do with transgender people just wanting their right to live as their desired gender

Fine to do that just don't stomp on women's rights.

- that's more to do with the increasing enforcement of toxic patriarchal ideas

It's patriarchal to say a man can be a woman and have the same rights.

and rising fascistic tendencies of the Western world as a result of the weaknesses of democratic systems

Democracies rely on freedom of speech and debate. It's not fascist to say men can't be women. Women such as stock should be allowed to debate these points in academia and not be hounded out.

popular conservative governments and men such as Trump who then in turn bring along misogynistic allies who stay long after such leaders are gone.

Going off piste here. It's not just a conservative view that man can't be women. Deep green resistance and many from all political backgrounds agree. Trump is a misogynist. It's also misogynistic to say men can be women and blame all misogyny on one woman standing up for women's rights.

This in turn makes misogynists generally more confident to speak their actual mind.

Yep like you.

Karl Popper's Tolerance Paradox can also be inserted into this conversation

Fuck knows what this bit is.

*Men are not women can also be inserted into this conversation multiple times.

Bloviating.

Authoritarianism is no debate.

the individual is arguing that their authoritarian view is valid, no debate. No evidence. Weak reasoning.

-D

Oxford debate society were being democratic in bringing stock in as they should.

Surely authoritarianism is fascist? 🤔

that's more to do with the increasing enforcement of toxic patriarchal ideas

You just don't like women saying no.

Oooh these twats piss me off. Off for a dog walk.

Re: Wade vs Roe, one of the favourite witters of misogynists was 'stop opening your woman mouth and argue for equality, because wouldn't it be a shame if something happened to your reproductive rights/bodily autonomy'?

Now it's happened (and those misogynists have done bugger all and cared less) its shifted on to 'if those women are allowed to speak, it might conceivably and vaguely lead to misogyny and authoritarianism. At some point. in a galaxy far far away.'.

To which my considered academic opinion would be 'mate, where have you been? we're already there'. This is largely trying to manipulate the gullible into fearfully shutting up women. Hand them a few stakes, bundles of firewood and a time machine back to the 16th century, they'll love it there.

There's probably a technical debate term for it.

Shite. That’s the technical term. 🤣

The paradox bit actually really annoyed me. That’s not making an argument. That’s waving your hand around and name dropping something that the writer thinks makes them sound clever.

The whole thing is that. But that bit just shouts ‘arrogant wanker’.

I left school at 16. We don't need an Oxbridge education to feel compassion for people who think they are in the wrong sex.

Just as we don't need to wade through Queer theory to know that Self ID is both wrong and unworkable.

Dogs know that men are men. Really not rocket science.

The irony of that passage beginning with the words "Not gonna lie".

@WarriorN I do worry. Is my dog a fascist transmisognyst?

I read philosophy and the whole lot is definitely bollocks - with knobs on.

Karl Popper and the tolerance paradox. In order to maintain its existence a tolerant society must be prepared not to tolerate intolerant ideas.

Brilliant 👏 🤣

Should have added that bringing up Popper's tolerance paradox actually negates the whole of the rest of the word salad. The ideas being put forward, that women should shut up and let men have their rights, spaces etc, for Popper's paradox would say that intolerant view should not be tolerated.

Alternative viewpoint.

1. Women's reproductive rights are under threat in America.

1. American feminism is dominated by people who believe that "woman" is an identity and has nothing to do with your reproductive role, and that the class of people who can become pregnant is not a distinct political category which needs its own word or any specific recognition in law.

These two things are not unrelated.

I agree. That is also being said, and feeds into the transgender argument.

Karl Popper and the tolerance paradox. In order to maintain its existence a tolerant society must be prepared not to tolerate intolerant ideas.

Hmm. Surely the height of intolerance is to stifle debate? I see Grammarnut has beaten me to it!

My favourite part is her calling other people fascists whilst she tries to stop a woman speaking because she disagrees with her views.

I think trans rights might mean the right to redefine any word they want when they want.

Sall Grover recenly posted this on twitter and nails it:

Allowing men who declare themselves women into female spaces is not equal rights.

It’s taking away rights from women while giving extra rights to men, to the point of giving one demographic of men even more rights than the average man but allowing all men to self ID into it.

^^

Maybe it’s a performance art project on the theme of irony that’s gotten out of hand.

This!

We all learn , and shape our own views, by engaging with others and their views. Why so harsh and judgmental?

Because subcontracting your thinking and opinion forming to others is dangerous.

There’s a big difference between engaging with others and participating in debates and the sort of ‘MN: tell me what I should be thinking about this’ stuff that we get on here pretty regularly.