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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 19/04/2023 20:27

'Green said the WI had only received two direct emails about the row on Tuesday, one from a non-member to express disgust and one from a member who had urged the organisation’s leaders not to change the inclusive stance of “our wonderful progressive community”.'

The petition presumably doesn't count, for some reason.

As for:

we learn something about being a woman through the eyes of transgender women

Right. Do we. What do we learn, Melissa?

OP posts:
WarningToTheCurious · 19/04/2023 20:28

A representative of the WI is quoted in a Guardian article as saying that trans women teach something about being a woman to the rest of the WI membership.

Great - I‘ll shave my head (but not my legs), put on a suit and tie, maybe accessorise with some brogues and cuff links, call myself Bert, and then start teaching men something about being a man.

I can see that going really well …

Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 19/04/2023 20:28

JanesLittleGirl · 19/04/2023 20:21

Please tell me that this quote is a parody?

Show quote history

Alas.

OP posts:
JellySaurus · 19/04/2023 20:30

*we learn something about being a woman through the eyes of transgender women

Right. Do we. What do we learn, Melissa?*

We learn how to perform feminine stereotypes. Or toxic masculine stereotypes, depending on the 'teacher'

Hepwo · 19/04/2023 20:31

She's silly and flippant even when apparently being serious.

Burns and Whittle clearly ran rings around her and that's not actually saying very much.

In that clip from the Vive show she asserts that Isla Bryson is not trans and yet her law tells us he is. A dim bulb.

LangClegsInSpace · 19/04/2023 20:33

Hepwo · 19/04/2023 20:12

Oh dear, she's the idiot that wrote this in the Standard.

I’m part of a wonderful Facebook group of older women celebrating confidence in our “hot girl years”, AKA the menopause. Trans women are not only welcome, they are cherished — we have all learned from their stories and world class ability to accessorise.

Vote Labour!

Oh god, her? I remember her now.

I won't give her any more attention.

IwantToRetire · 19/04/2023 21:17

@ScrollingLeaves

Unfortunately that isn't the clip which was from earlier in the year.

And in it she was really flip about how she know about the EA because she had helped draft the exemptions (ie I did it so it must be okay) as part of her work for the Labour Party.

But is was so clear, women's rights were seen to be second class to trans rights.

I wish I had saved the link it was so stark.

And is of course reflected in current Labour policy. Women know your place. You get your rights after everyone else is secure in theirs.

I think the clip you linked to in fact just shows her not back pedalling but trying to divert the issue itself into the problem is the toxic commentators.

ScrollingLeaves · 19/04/2023 21:54

@IwantToRetire · Today 21:17
ScrollingLeaves

Unfortunately that isn't the clip which was from earlier in the year.

And in it she was really flip about how she know about the EA because she had helped draft the exemptions (ie I did it so it must be okay) as part of her work for the Labour Party.

But is was so clear, women's rights were seen to be second class to trans rights.

I wish I had saved the link it was so stark.

And is of course reflected in current Labour policy. Women know your place. You get your rights after everyone else is secure in theirs.

I think the clip you linked to in fact just shows her not back pedalling but trying to divert the issue itself into the problem is the toxic commentators.

Thank you for letting me know. I thought it might not be the right one.

Even so, the way she spoke about the exemptions for women and the protection of trans as though they were so balanced there was no cause for argument, just made her seem out of touch with reality, especially as they were also discussing Isla Bryson.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 19/04/2023 22:17

LangClegsInSpace · 19/04/2023 19:47

How did someone like Melissa Green become CEO of NFWI?

There's a wider problem with the model of umbrella orgs. We've seen it with Women's Aid, Rape Crisis, GirlGuiding etc. and I've seen it in other contexts too.

The people at the top who work for the federation are on the career charity-go-round and are completely out of touch with what the member orgs are for, what they're trying to do and what they are facing. They don't give a shit as long as their next charity move is a step up and looks good on the CV.

Melissa has a professional background in the third sector, with senior leadership roles in a number of national membership and volunteer-led organisations and with a focus on children, families and communities. Melissa’s previous roles include Head of Adult Support at The Scout Association, Interim CEO at Bliss, the special care baby charity, and Director of Operations at The Fostering Network.

https://www.thewi.org.uk/about-us/who-we-are/senior-staff/melissa-green

The member orgs are subscribing to a franchise, a bit like Wimpy restaurants. They are reliant on their federation membership for funding but in return there's a certain amount of branding they must accept and certain lines they must toe.

The whole model appears to benefit the charity-go-round careerists like Melissa, at the expense of the member orgs and ordinary members.

Show quote history

Subs this year is £46, a not insignificant sum for many of our members

of that, our institute keeps £22.60

the federation (the county, basically) get £10.80

National, so Melissa and her chums, get £12.60

I know the women at county level and I understand what we get for our £10.80. It's decent value.

I've got no fucking clue what value Melissa is adding that entitles her to over a quarter of my subs

StoptheToryshitshow · 19/04/2023 23:51

Does nobody on here have trans children? Am
flabbergasted at the general lack of empathy with these issues. Yes there are conversations to be had about safe spaces but does anyone actually here know any trans women? As every single one I’ve met has been a gentle soul. I’m genuinely curious, where should they hang out? Who should they socialise with? And what if you have a trans (born female) child who wants to hang out with boys? Are they not allowed in those male spaces either? I think the WI are generally trying to be inclusive, unfortunately those may be in favour (I.E me and many others like me)won’t be heard among the outrage

Hepwo · 19/04/2023 23:56

What does inclusive mean?

IwantToRetire · 20/04/2023 00:12

Am flabbergasted at the general lack of empathy with these issues.

You seem to be missing the point.

Nobody is saying trans children should never go out and be with other people.

The whole emphasise of this thread and 99.9% of threads on FWR is why should women not be able to have their own single sex associations, services etc..

The demand that women should give up their rights to accommodate others is just part of decades, centuries of women being deemed unimportant.

Showing me one thread on FWR that says trans children should be kept in isolation.

If there seems to be a lack of "empathy" it is the relentless attack on women only spaces.

So women are fighting back at this constant attack.

Unless of course you also think there is never any circumstance that women should have single sex spaces.

(By the way I wasn't aware that one of the purposes of the WI was to socialise children, so not sure why that has come up as an issue on this thread.)

StrawHatOnTheParcelShelf · 20/04/2023 00:30

StoptheToryshitshow · 19/04/2023 23:51

Does nobody on here have trans children? Am
flabbergasted at the general lack of empathy with these issues. Yes there are conversations to be had about safe spaces but does anyone actually here know any trans women? As every single one I’ve met has been a gentle soul. I’m genuinely curious, where should they hang out? Who should they socialise with? And what if you have a trans (born female) child who wants to hang out with boys? Are they not allowed in those male spaces either? I think the WI are generally trying to be inclusive, unfortunately those may be in favour (I.E me and many others like me)won’t be heard among the outrage

Yeah I'm quite close to two. They are at very different points on the 'living as a woman' scale. One has gone through all legal, practical and surgical channels and has been 100% in 'female mode' for a long time. The other has informally adopted a pretty name and puts sexy dress up posts on Insta from the privacy of their bedroom, but otherwise presents the same as before.

The trouble with blanket policies from organisational HQ is that they can't distinguish - let all in or let none in, or in this case a loosely worded compromise that means nothing in practice. I'm not sure what the answer is, but maybe leaving the decisions to local chapters (which was probably already happening) would be better.

But the short answer to your question is - they can hang out anywhere they're welcome. Just like everyone else. I don't get to join a men's football team because 'I want to hang out with boys'.

AnythingToSay · 20/04/2023 00:53

StoptheToryshitshow · 19/04/2023 23:51

Does nobody on here have trans children? Am
flabbergasted at the general lack of empathy with these issues. Yes there are conversations to be had about safe spaces but does anyone actually here know any trans women? As every single one I’ve met has been a gentle soul. I’m genuinely curious, where should they hang out? Who should they socialise with? And what if you have a trans (born female) child who wants to hang out with boys? Are they not allowed in those male spaces either? I think the WI are generally trying to be inclusive, unfortunately those may be in favour (I.E me and many others like me)won’t be heard among the outrage

What is a trans child?

Is Karen White a gentle soul? What about Isla Bryson, Michael Maria Pentholm, Katie Dolatowski, Jessica Winfield, Tara Desousa, Janiah Monroe, Kristen Lukess, Lisa Hauxwell, Laken McKay, Aliea Rose Brown, Paula Witherspoon, Davina Ayrton, Johanna Wolf, Hanna Tubbs, Christopher Hambrook, Dakota Nieves, Tarah Jo Morgan, Marie Dean, Jessica Brennan, Rachel Smith, Marcia Walker, Synthia China Blast, Michelle Winter, Paris Bregazzi, Melissa Wilson, Barbie Kardashian, Jessica Smith, Wolfgang Schmidtd, Chloe Thompson, Denen Anderson, Kadence Pinder, Beth Hannay, Leah Harvey, Julie Marshall, Blaine Maney, Amber Thorden, Evi Amati, Babs Longmire, Rachel Fenton, Jorven Seren, Claire Goodier, Kim Marie Johannson, Steven Hayes, Jacinta Brooks, Alexander Eshawn Lions, Ashley Winter, Steph Ricciardi, Vicky Green, Ella Davies, Melissa Addis, Madilyn Harks, Jessica Marie Hann, Michelle Martinez, Nicole Summers, Shauna Patricia Smith, Evelyn Young, Claire Goodier, Allison Woolbert, Nur Ahmed, Vyvyenne Ward, Laura McCann, Lisa Jones, Rayne Aloysius Constantine Rose Bennett, Louise Foord, Robert Glanowski, Joshua Bate, Alyssa Celusta, Sora Kuykendall, Lydia Helena Vision, Ava Jones, Alex Ray Scott, Diego Melendez, Paris Green, Tiffany Scott, Zoe Lynes, Vicky Green, Pauline Long, Chloe Walker, Toni Prince, Lana Laws, Christyl Knight, Carrie Cooper, Jasmine Hill, Nicola Florida, Dawn Love, Stacey Pool, Alexis Herschell, Scarlet Shadows, Karen Louise Lawson, Nicola Cope, Gina Owen, Kayleigh Louise Woods, Claire Darbyshire, Kira Leverton, Kathleen Carpenter, Donna Perry, Karen Jones, Carol Lea, Michelle Lewin, Alanna Nicole Partin, Yostin Murillo, Peter Selby, Wendy Jones, Rose Whitby, Daryl Graves, Diana Guevara, Jason Croker, Jody Matthew Burke, Patricia Trimble, Klaus T, Sally Dixon, Milan Wash, Adree Edmo, Jayden Dean, Paul Denyer, Bruno Meirelles, Pandora Electra, Robert Gordon Cummins, Danielle Rose Gemini, Amber McLaughlin, Brooke Lyn Sonia, Nonnie Lotusflower, Tianne Miller, Andrea Balcer, Narsimha Bichappa Shirvati, Brandy Wood, Isla Bryson, Kelly McSean, Michelle Renee Lamb, Andrea Balcer, Ketan Shende, Serenity Alana Mann, Sacho Samson, Harryetta Thompson, Jenna Hansen, Jane Beck, Audrey Robinson and Lexi-Rose Crawford and Carissa Marie Radcliffe, Jolene Charisma Starr, Zara Jade and Rhiley Carlson?

Hepwo · 20/04/2023 01:10

That maid outfit will be handy for serving the tea.

NashvilleQueen · 20/04/2023 06:54

Viviennemary · 18/04/2023 01:45

I can't see the harm. It will only be a few folk. Don't agree with the sport issue though. Because that is an unfair advantage.

You probably think that's a tolerant, reasonable and #BeKind take on the issue but in fact you'd be seen as a bit of a TERF I'm afraid because it's total acceptance or nothing.

They don't want to join as a man hanging out with the girls but as a true woman equal in every sense to all the biological women and with absolute acceptance of their status. If you pick and mix your stance on this (eg around sport or prisons) then it means you recognise that there's a biological difference.

Women have been guilt tripped, coerced and forced into being nice to men to let them have what they want for far too long. This is just the latest iteration.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 20/04/2023 06:57

It will be less good for women with men there

that means there shouldn’t be any men there

the end

zen1 · 20/04/2023 07:17

I’m glad the DM picked up on the story about Varma. And it would be nice to think that the boasts of violence and threats to kill will be investigated thought I bet they won’t be.

JacquelinePot · 20/04/2023 07:28

@StoptheToryshitshow "Does nobody on here have trans children?"

This thread isn't about kids, but OK. What is a "trans child" in your mind?

Is it a child who hates their body so much that they wish they were the opposite sex?

Is it a child who prefers clothes, toys and activities stereotypically associated with the other sex?

Is it a child with ASD who feels they don't fit in?

Is it a child who, upon the onset of puberty, begins to feel same sex attraction and experiences homophobia and decides it would be better to be straight?

Is it a bereaved, traumatised, abused, bullied or looked after child? Is it a child with comorbidities like anxiety, depression or eating disorders?

In my experience, yes. These are the children who end up saying that they are trans. Read Time to Think, by Hannah Barnes if you think I'm exaggerating.

Or do you think a "trans" child is one who has been "born in the wrong body"? Is so, what is it that is born into the body that is wrong? Isn't a soul? An essence? What evidence is there for this?

teawamutu · 20/04/2023 08:15

StoptheToryshitshow · 19/04/2023 23:51

Does nobody on here have trans children? Am
flabbergasted at the general lack of empathy with these issues. Yes there are conversations to be had about safe spaces but does anyone actually here know any trans women? As every single one I’ve met has been a gentle soul. I’m genuinely curious, where should they hang out? Who should they socialise with? And what if you have a trans (born female) child who wants to hang out with boys? Are they not allowed in those male spaces either? I think the WI are generally trying to be inclusive, unfortunately those may be in favour (I.E me and many others like me)won’t be heard among the outrage

Of course I know trans people. Doesn't change my understanding of human biology.

Why do you prefer to pressure women to give up their rights rather than tell males 'no'?

LangClegsInSpace · 20/04/2023 08:53

I think the WI are generally trying to be inclusive, unfortunately those may be in favour (I.E me and many others like me)won’t be heard among the outrage

They are calling for a debate and a vote, so assuming you are a WI member then you would have the same chance to be heard as everyone else.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 20/04/2023 08:54

StoptheToryshitshow · 19/04/2023 23:51

Does nobody on here have trans children? Am
flabbergasted at the general lack of empathy with these issues. Yes there are conversations to be had about safe spaces but does anyone actually here know any trans women? As every single one I’ve met has been a gentle soul. I’m genuinely curious, where should they hang out? Who should they socialise with? And what if you have a trans (born female) child who wants to hang out with boys? Are they not allowed in those male spaces either? I think the WI are generally trying to be inclusive, unfortunately those may be in favour (I.E me and many others like me)won’t be heard among the outrage

Do you think 'if these women only knew transwomen they'd gladly exercise their empathy and give up every shred of their rights to those exalted beings?' Transpeople are equal and social rules apply to them too. Young lads deserve privacy in toilets etc so no, young girls definitely shouldn't be in their private spaces - it's extremely rude and disrespectful. Transwomen have no need to be in the WI and the fact that women don't want them there is more than enough, they can 'hang out' somewhere else and socialise with other people. Women aren't support animals.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 20/04/2023 09:01

I’ve worked with 3 men who enjoyed role playing as women

all 3 were overtly ‘pretending’ to be women in ways I found insulting ( short skirts at work, creepy and inappropriate ‘girl talk’ etc)

I tolerated it at work because everyone has a right to work and work is and should be a mixed sex environment

given that I have joined a club that advertises itself as single sex, I don’t see why my tolerance should extend there

so yes, I have met trans people. That forms the basis of my position