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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
Thread gallery
25
DerekFaker · 19/04/2023 09:07

Little bit more info on this person. They have had multiple accounts in twiitter as they keep making violent threats and getting banned.

""Miss Gripper" is Shanu Varma. He has been reported to the police before and @JeanHatchet won a case against him.
We suggest a report to @TerrorismPolice @ukhomeoffice
His threats are escalating."

https://twitter.com/ForWomenScot/status/1648565520877121536?t=brqF1rZH7hEpJDV8l50uaQ&s=19

https://twitter.com/ForWomenScot/status/1648565520877121536?s=19&t=brqF1rZH7hEpJDV8l50uaQ

ArabeIIaScott · 19/04/2023 09:08

Talked about many issues intimately - babies, breastfeeding, period poverty, incontinence, woman's mental health crisis, ADHD and ASD in women, the suffragist movement.

Why would a male want to join a group where women discuss these intimate, biology-specific issues?

OP posts:
Plasmodesmata · 19/04/2023 09:20

With this being in the news, is the WI likely to get an increase in applications from women? Or is it more likely to attract people like Miss Gripper?

ArabeIIaScott · 19/04/2023 09:38

DerekFaker · 19/04/2023 09:07

Little bit more info on this person. They have had multiple accounts in twiitter as they keep making violent threats and getting banned.

""Miss Gripper" is Shanu Varma. He has been reported to the police before and @JeanHatchet won a case against him.
We suggest a report to @TerrorismPolice @ukhomeoffice
His threats are escalating."

https://twitter.com/ForWomenScot/status/1648565520877121536?t=brqF1rZH7hEpJDV8l50uaQ&s=19

If someone is threatening terrorism like this they can be reported. You can do so anonymously.

https://www.gov.uk/report-terrorism

Report online material promoting terrorism or extremism

Report internet content promoting terrorism, extremism or violence - your report will be treated anonymously.

https://www.gov.uk/report-terrorism

OP posts:
Blort · 19/04/2023 09:48

DragonflyLady · 19/04/2023 07:22

@Blort you’re not on the Unofficial WI group on FB are you? Lots of posts supporting trans and someone this morning claiming the anti-trans movement is funded by extreme right wingers. Latest post with links claiming sex is not binary. I am in the WI, I’ve been in for about 13 years now since I was pregnant. I love meeting a wide range of women and learning from the speakers we have. It’s a small village WI and the trans issue hasn’t affected us yet. Am about to renew my subs and it’s the policies that make me feel a bit meh about that, but I value the single sex environment and the friendship I encounter at our monthly meetings.

When I was in the WI the unofficial group were strictly #nodebate and deleted or turned off all discussion of gender critical posts - even ones unrelated to membership but on women's hospital wards etc.

Glad that debate is allowed now.

Viviennemary · 19/04/2023 09:51

I don't think WI discuss breastfeeding. What a fuss about nothing. One trans person has joined the WI. And a great pile on of folk on here condemning it. Most of whom probably aren't even members.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 19/04/2023 09:52

I’m a member

I don’t want men there. I go because I want to be with women

if I wanted to be a member of a mixed sex group, I’d join one

DragonflyLady · 19/04/2023 10:13

Strange that, cos I’ve been in breastfeeding conversations at WI - and have breastfed there. Petra isn’t the only TW in the WI however Petra appears to be in the WI purely to push trans issues and doesn’t join in with any other conversations on the UWI group. It’s just a bit creepy tbh.

Beeswood · 19/04/2023 10:27

@LangClegsInSpace

Thank you so much for going to the trouble of replying to me about my query.
I really appreciate it.

Ofcourseshecan · 19/04/2023 11:56

Viviennemary · 18/04/2023 01:45

I can't see the harm. It will only be a few folk. Don't agree with the sport issue though. Because that is an unfair advantage.

Even one man in a women’s space makes it mixed-sex.

MistyGreenAndBlue · 19/04/2023 12:28

mach2 · 18/04/2023 07:55

It adds that 'crossdressers' cannot join the WI as 'only those living as women can join the WI'.

How can they tell?

They're ALL "cross dressers"
You can't change sex!

viques · 19/04/2023 12:29

StellaAndCrow · 18/04/2023 15:35

Is that two blokes talking about who woman should let into their spaces?

The world is a strange place for sure.

Blort · 19/04/2023 12:36

Viviennemary · 19/04/2023 09:51

I don't think WI discuss breastfeeding. What a fuss about nothing. One trans person has joined the WI. And a great pile on of folk on here condemning it. Most of whom probably aren't even members.

Every WI is different so if your institute don't discuss it , it doesnt mean another wont.

You are in the WI aren't you?

Boiledeggandtoast · 19/04/2023 12:45

At our WI we had a speaker on the menopause followed by a very open and honest discussion about our experiences, including vaginal atrophy and coping with heavy bleeding; I doubt that would have happened with a man present.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 19/04/2023 13:26

We did chair yoga which was particularly good for the older members. There’s no way we would all have participated enthusiastically with a man present

Bosky · 19/04/2023 14:39

DerekFaker · 19/04/2023 09:07

Little bit more info on this person. They have had multiple accounts in twiitter as they keep making violent threats and getting banned.

""Miss Gripper" is Shanu Varma. He has been reported to the police before and @JeanHatchet won a case against him.
We suggest a report to @TerrorismPolice @ukhomeoffice
His threats are escalating."

https://twitter.com/ForWomenScot/status/1648565520877121536?t=brqF1rZH7hEpJDV8l50uaQ&s=19

Some Twitter aliases of the nice new WI and Labour Party Member.

Best to Block and not engage for your own safety.

Unblock temporarily if you want to peek at the aggression, threats, vulgar posing in lingerie, etc.

Music Producer - DJmissGripper
Golf - desibandito (currently deactivated)
Conversion Therapy - FMstompdotcom
Professional Profile - DrShanuVarma
Explicitly targeting GC accounts - GC_Fuckups

There will be loads more Twitter socks than these ones plus other Social Media.

(Note to self: must remember that the new Twitter policy of allowing misgendering does not apply to Mumsnet!)

MrsPelligrinoPetrichor · 19/04/2023 14:57

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 19/04/2023 13:26

We did chair yoga which was particularly good for the older members. There’s no way we would all have participated enthusiastically with a man present

Exactly, we had a talk from a physio about female health such as bladder issues after birth. Most interesting but I would not have attended with men present.

IwantToRetire · 19/04/2023 16:28

If a Trans woman has a GRC certificate and is Female on their birth certificate, can they be excluded under current law?

Yes, the Haldane ruling is irrelevant as it merely confirmed the law as it currently stands.

This means that even though for "most purposes" a trans woman with a GRC is treated as though of the opposite sex to the one that they are born, there are exceptions under the EA that mean services, associations, etc., can be based on born / biological sex.

The problem is not even organisations, instritutions, service providers are bothered to arugement that their service etc., is a valid case for an exception.

It is of course insulting that the law has been written so that those of the actual sex have to argue for their rights against the hostile rights of a tiny minority.

And unfortunatley given societal lack of respect for women, as biological females, and their lived experience, this legal fiction means that many who could, dont bother to stand up for women.

ScrollingLeaves · 19/04/2023 17:05

LangClegsInSpace · Today 08:17

Beeswood · Today 01:20
If a Trans woman has a GRC certificate and is Female on their birth certificate, can they be excluded under current law?

My understanding of the Haldane judgment is that no, they currently can't be excluded as they are legally female.

IwantToRetire · Today 16:28

If a Trans woman has a GRC certificate and is Female on their birth certificate, can they be excluded under current law?

Yes, the Haldane ruling is irrelevant as it merely confirmed the law as it currently stands.

So two contradictory views.

It is clear the Equality Act is completely confusing and badly designed especially in how it interacts with the GRA.

My understanding is the same as LangClegsInSpace’s
and is based on a Women and Equalities discussion held in the House of Commons
31 January with the legal expert Dr Michael Foran answering questions and explaining the issues of this interaction.

https://committees.parliament.uk/oralevidence/12639/pdf/

(It is all interesting but scroll to about Q26)

Dr Foran: Yes, it did. The Haldane—

Chair: Following the Haldane judgment, would it be helpful if that were
revisited?

Dr Foran:
Absolutely. The issue with the Haldane judgment as it arises for all the purposes that we are dealing with here is that up until that point, we were really not sure whether or not sex in the Equality Act, as modified by a GRA, first, does modify the Equality Act for the purposes of the claimant, somebody who has a gender recognition certificate, whether they would be classed as male or female for the purposes of a direct discrimination claim. The Haldane judgment goes further than that because it says, effectively, that the definition of sex in the entire Act becomes legal sex. That means that single sex spaces become single legal sex spaces, and what it then means is your justification for exclusion will hinge partially upon whether or not the person is of the characteristic legally that that space is. The test is the same. It is still a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim, but whether or not you are legally the same person of a space or a service that is set up for that legal category, not biological category, will be relevant for determining whether or not exclusion is proportionate. The proportionality—

Q27 Chair: Lord Falconer, do you want to comment on that?

Lord Falconer of Thoroton:
Michael has made it incredibly complicated. The Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill does not change the basis on which you make a determination on whether or not—

Dr Foran:
No, it changes whether or not you can sue. The policy arguments will not be changed. You could introduce a policy that bans all males from female prisons if you want, but you could be sued for that. You could be sued for gender recognition discrimination. The question about whether or not you have a gender recognition certificate changes the nature of that suit that you make from an indirect discrimination claim to a direct discrimination claim, subject to the same justification test. Is it a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim? If you think a court will possibly come to a conclusion that the exclusion of this legal woman who is biologically male and that there is a less onerous way to achieve the legitimate aim of providing security then the policy will be struck down as unlawful. If you want to ensure with absolute certainty that no rapist makes it into a women’s jail, you need a blanket ban, and blanket bans can be struck down by courts. You need to legislate to have that ban in place. Policy documents, guidance, will not do it because the legislative framework is as it is and it is hooked on to a proportionality test.

FigRollsAlly · 19/04/2023 17:31

Viviennemary · 19/04/2023 09:51

I don't think WI discuss breastfeeding. What a fuss about nothing. One trans person has joined the WI. And a great pile on of folk on here condemning it. Most of whom probably aren't even members.

You don’t think? Presumably that means you don’t actually know as you’re not a member. And if you are/were a member you are dismissing the experiences of other WI members here who definitely discussed all kinds of sensitive subjects but wouldn’t have done so in the presence of a man.

IwantToRetire · 19/04/2023 17:57

Foran is a biased witness. And uninformed. eg he said associations cant be single sex. They can.

What I have written is what was said at the time (cant be bothered to find the name) senior UK judge post Haldane ruling and acknowledged by Nicola Sturgeon and others.

And was illustrated by the Bristol student feminist group being grudgingly admitted to have the right to be women only.

The same posters keep coming up with this misinterpretation of the Haldane ruling and somehow make one committee more important than anything else, which not only included numpty Foran but had some really silly things said by the Sex Matters rep about women's groups. (I hope she updates her education prior to representing "Sarah")

Its really strange to keep repeating the worse scenario explanation instead of pro-actively circulating what the law is in practice.

As I said upthread it is a total outrage that women are treated as an "exemption" but the problem is that not enough are prepared to use the exemptions.

Unless and until the EA is clarified to say sex means sex, why not be positive and proactive about what can be done to ensure women have single sex services.

Not forgetting that despite the very loud trans campaign, most large institutions stopped using the exemptions for purely financial reasons, and so aren't going to make any effort to re-instate them because of ongoing cuts.

ArabeIIaScott · 19/04/2023 18:08

Michael Foran is a professor of law at Glasgow University.

An excerpt from his bio:

'... PhD in Constitutional Theory at the University of Cambridge and holds degrees from the London School of Economics (MSc in Law and Anthropology) and Trinity College Dublin (LLB).

He specialises in constitutional law with a particular focus on the rule of law, legal equality, and the common law constitutional tradition. '

You may consider that he is wrong, but if there is one thing he is not it is 'uninformed'. And calling him a 'numpty' is a hot take, frankly.

The fact is that highly qualified and informed lawyers disagree on the interpretations of the EA, Haldane's judgement, etc.

Which is why the whole thing needs to be unpicked and probably rewritten, at least in parts. Law that nobody understands or agrees on is unsustainable.

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 19/04/2023 18:28

ArabeIIaScott · Today 18:08
The fact is that highly qualified and informed lawyers disagree on the interpretations of the EA, Haldane's judgement, etc.

Which is why the whole thing needs to be unpicked and probably rewritten, at least in parts. Law that nobody understands or agrees on is unsustainable.

This is the point. If people like this disagree, ordinary people are not going to risk it.