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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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MrsPelligrinoPetrichor · 18/04/2023 12:06

ArabeIIaScott · 18/04/2023 08:48

Why not? Why can't women have a group just for women?

I remember the arguments about golf clubs and men's sheds, and I argued the same back then - there is nothing wrong with having single sex spaces, it's unfair to force people to accept those of the opposite sex.

Most groups are mixed sex and that's fine. Sometimes people just want to be with members of their own sex. This has been a thing since forever, it's always been important to have some same-sex groups.

There was a segment on the news recently about a gardening group for Muslim women who had allotments. They were talking about how it was only for women. How is that different from want women only in WI?

MrsPelligrinoPetrichor · 18/04/2023 12:08

EsmaCannonball · 18/04/2023 12:04

Mixed-sex space always becomes male dominated space. The WI isn't just about jam and knitting, it's always been very involved in women's education and feminist campaigning. Single-sex spaces for women aren't just about physical safety and bodily privacy, there's a political and social aspect to them too. Imagine if, for example, union members were never allowed to meet unless at least one of the bosses was present too.

This makes me angry as I know several women for whom the WI is their only social life and time away from taking care of men. I remember hearing women talk about the early decades of the WI and how difficult it could be to get their husbands to take care of their own children so they could attend meetings and how suspicious some men were of what women were plotting when men weren't there. They don't want us to have anything of our own. If men don't want women in a space they don't have to bother with laws, they just have to make that space so hostile and intimidating to women that women self-exclude. If women want a tiny little space we have to plead for our rights.

Absolutely agree. I've been a member for over 3 years now, jam and baking barely gets a mention.

Spanielsarepainless · 18/04/2023 12:09

DH belongs to three men-only Masonic lodges. But I left WI four years ago over this issue.

OldCrone · 18/04/2023 12:14

Chewbecca · 18/04/2023 12:02

That says trans people may describe themselves as cross dressers. That's not the same as saying cross dressers are trans.

What's the difference between a crossdresser saying they're trans and a 'trans person' describing themself as a crossdresser?

OldCrone · 18/04/2023 12:28

Chewbecca · 18/04/2023 11:26

I think there is quite a different mindset between people who consider themselves trans vs and cross dressers. I think the next generation are doing trans their own way (of course); DS's 'trans' friends don't actually dress differently to how they used to, they are still in jeans, trainers & hoodies with no make up. They have long hair (always did though) & girls names. I can't ask too much detail as we quickly start to disagree.

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Transvestites/crossdressers have always been included under the trans umbrella.

Press For Change is the organisation that is pretty much solely responsible for the Gender Recognition Act being passed in 2004. They championed the use of the term ‘trans’ precisely because it made no distinction between ‘transsexual’ and ‘transvestite’.

https://womenspeakscotland.com/2021/06/23/the-trans-umbrella-is-older-than-you-think/

The Trans Umbrella Is Older Than You Think

Years ago I was a ‘trans ally’. I thought ‘trans’ meant transsexual and my idea of a ‘trans woman’ was someone who had had genital surgery and was quietly going …

https://womenspeakscotland.com/2021/06/23/the-trans-umbrella-is-older-than-you-think

Mammillaria · 18/04/2023 12:29

Petra seems like a genuinely kind soul, but 65(?) years of testosterone and male socialisation is inescapable and Petra's presence will, unfortunately, change the dynamic of women's-only spaces.

Ep-29 Petra Wenham, The Women's Institute, Media Coverage

To dispel the many myths around Transgender and Non-Binary People's gender identities, to empower individuals going through transition and provide an open an...

https://youtu.be/fGctppEm3gQ

Alltheprettyseahorses · 18/04/2023 12:51

The EA bar for a single-sex space is set deliberately low: anywhere you wouldn't expect to see a member of the opposite sex. This certainly shouldn't include any 'seat of power' for want of a better phrase but rightly leaves the door wide open for groups that under normal circumstances wouldn't be questioned by anyone.

As it is, WI women are saying they don't want any males in their group and that should be respected and go unchallenged.

Whaeanui · 18/04/2023 13:06

The WI isn't just about jam and knitting, it's always been very involved in women's education and feminist campaigning. Single-sex spaces for women aren't just about physical safety and bodily privacy, there's a political and social aspect to them too. Imagine if, for example, union members were never allowed to meet unless at least one of the bosses was present too.

This^^ honestly the jam and baking comment was a little rude and misogynistic.

Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 18/04/2023 13:32

I'm sure Petra may well be lovely. (And it seems 'WI HQ' are standing behind Petra, metaphorically).

Many women are lovely, too. And many women want space and time to themselves without males being present. Even women who live with males sometimes appreciate single-sex company, believe it or not.

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Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 18/04/2023 13:33

And to be honest, if Petra knows that their presence upsets women, or even causes women to self exclude, then how is that 'lovely'?

What makes Petra different from any other male?

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Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 18/04/2023 13:42

'Lord Hague told Times Radio: “There are some areas where there’s been a danger of going too fast – competitive sport is one of them. And world athletics has made clear that women’s sport can’t be transgender, otherwise it would be the end of women’s sport. And I think that is quite right.”

But he added: “I’m not sure that applies to the Women’s Institute, though, you know there are transgender people, they have changed their gender. This is part of our society now.

“And I think large national organisations like the WI have to get over that and get used to that, and welcome new people.
“So that would be the side of the argument I’m on.”
He added: “I’ll probably get a lot of angry letters now from WI members but I would be on that side of the argument.”'

If anyone can be arsed sending the wee scrote an 'angry letter', you can probably get him at his gentlemen's club.

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MissPollysFitDolly · 18/04/2023 13:56

Would Hague have been in parliament when they decided to deny transmen the right to inherit titles? I wonder what his stance on that is.

Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 18/04/2023 14:12

1989 elected as MP, in HoC til 2015. So I would think he was there, although can't find record of his vote.

https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?mpid=40499&dmp=826

William Hague compared to 'Homosexuality - Equal rights'

https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?dmp=826&mpid=40499

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EsmaCannonball · 18/04/2023 14:21

So William Hague wants to deprive women of freedom of association but personally enjoys the freedom of association between rich, well-connected men. What a shock.

We are living in a time when every organisation women founded for themselves is being colonised by men and women are having to spend time, effort and money to re-found those organisations, all the while being called bigots and (special) man-haters for doing so. We think we've progressed but we are just fighting the same battles against a more devious opponent.

Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 18/04/2023 14:21

Oh, Hansard from 2004-2006 seems to not exist. Odd.

'Hansard content from 2004 to 2006 is currently unavailable on this website'

And I can't find it on the links given, either.

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ResisterRex · 18/04/2023 14:28

ArabeIIaScott · 18/04/2023 14:21

Oh, Hansard from 2004-2006 seems to not exist. Odd.

'Hansard content from 2004 to 2006 is currently unavailable on this website'

And I can't find it on the links given, either.

Try here

api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/index.html

Here's one with part of the GRA debate
api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/2004/feb/11/gender-recognition

Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 18/04/2023 14:30

Thank you!

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JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon · 18/04/2023 14:30

ArabeIIaScott · 18/04/2023 13:42

'Lord Hague told Times Radio: “There are some areas where there’s been a danger of going too fast – competitive sport is one of them. And world athletics has made clear that women’s sport can’t be transgender, otherwise it would be the end of women’s sport. And I think that is quite right.”

But he added: “I’m not sure that applies to the Women’s Institute, though, you know there are transgender people, they have changed their gender. This is part of our society now.

“And I think large national organisations like the WI have to get over that and get used to that, and welcome new people.
“So that would be the side of the argument I’m on.”
He added: “I’ll probably get a lot of angry letters now from WI members but I would be on that side of the argument.”'

If anyone can be arsed sending the wee scrote an 'angry letter', you can probably get him at his gentlemen's club.

I'm sure he'll be supporting all the transmen who want to join the free masons too then 🤔

StellaAndCrow · 18/04/2023 15:33

And I do think the policy potentially discriminates against men who are "cross dressers", as it would against any man other than one who says he's a transwoman.
Either there is a claim for it to be single sex or there's not.

StellaAndCrow · 18/04/2023 15:35

Mammillaria · 18/04/2023 12:29

Petra seems like a genuinely kind soul, but 65(?) years of testosterone and male socialisation is inescapable and Petra's presence will, unfortunately, change the dynamic of women's-only spaces.

Is that two blokes talking about who woman should let into their spaces?

Grammarnut · 18/04/2023 16:23

RedToothBrush · 18/04/2023 08:36

This is one area I don't think would be covered by the Equality Act exemptions tbh.

You'd have to demonstrate a need for women to bake cakes and make jam without the presence of males. I think you would potentially struggle.

You would be able to prevent transwomen from going to a WI residential but not necessarily from other social groups unless they could demonstrate a legitimate aim from being single sex.

So a kayaking session for women because of the difference in levels of physical ability and how women are deterred from participating in sport in the presence of stronger males who have been socialised differently MIGHT just get away with it but I am struggling to think of a specific legitimate aim the WI are trying to achieve that would be deemed proportionate in a court.

The WI does not just bake cakes - how patronising. And if women want to do that - or anything - with no males present why should they not?

Original poster
ArabeIIaScott · 18/04/2023 16:32

StellaAndCrow · 18/04/2023 15:35

Is that two blokes talking about who woman should let into their spaces?

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Of course. They'll know best.

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