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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

I had my booking appointment this week

109 replies

SundaeClub · 13/04/2023 22:31

At the end I looked over at the midwife's computer screen.

In the section for my personal details, there were boxes for "Legal sex" and "Sex assigned at birth". Fine. Seems like comprehensive data collection.

Except that my "sex assigned at birth" was left blank. As this was a maternity appointment, the answer to this question is self-evident. No reason for it to be left blank.

And my "legal sex" was filled in as female. She didn't ask me my legal sex, and had no way of knowing if I had a GRC.

My midwife was very nice. She also spoke English as a second language. So I guess this goes in the new ONS bucket of opaque questions leading to poor data collection from the large section of the population that does not speak genderwang.

OP posts:
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Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 13/04/2023 22:36

Darling, if you are lying on the scan table with a fétus in your womb, you have to face up to the fact you are female aka a woman

really, no need to to ask.

even if you identify as a chap, or a baboon, or a minor asteroid, you are a woman as far as the maternity services go.

for now, anyway.

Original poster
SundaeClub · 13/04/2023 22:58

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 13/04/2023 22:36

Darling, if you are lying on the scan table with a fétus in your womb, you have to face up to the fact you are female aka a woman

really, no need to to ask.

even if you identify as a chap, or a baboon, or a minor asteroid, you are a woman as far as the maternity services go.

for now, anyway.

Obviously I am female, so that question should have been easily answered by the midwife, not left blank.

If they are going to ask about "legal sex" (ie, whether or not I have gone through the legal process to get a sex change) then they should get the correct answer, not just guess.

My point was that the midwife clearly didn't understand what the questions were getting at. Which is of no consequence for my particular situation, but this poor data collection is surely being replicated wherever else the NHS is using this questions, including situations where the answers will be clinically significant.

OP posts:
MrsOvertonsWindow · 13/04/2023 23:23

Congratulations OP.
I get your point. I expect there's a mix of embarrassment, fury and humiliation from so many lovely people working in a captured NHS having to make sense of this ideological nonsense. Especially working in maternity care where the NHS consistently fails to offer good safe care to too many women and babies yet staff are repeatedly distracted with demands to pander to a tiny number of women who reject their sex.

ApplesandPares · 13/04/2023 23:26

Maybe she does understand and leaves it blank as she, too, thinks it’s bollocks.

IcakethereforeIam · 14/04/2023 01:14

Isn't it illegal to ask if someone has a GRC anyway?

Congratulations OP.

forgotmyusername1 · 14/04/2023 06:37

Maybe she just couldn't face asking someone growing a baby in their uterus 'so sundae, can you please confirm if you are a man or a woman'

Needmoresleep · 14/04/2023 06:51

Or she had had too many experiences of asking someone, with say poor English, their sex and then their gender identity, and having to explain. She would only have so much time per patient, and so would want to focus on more pertinent questions, particularly if she had concerns for either the baby or the mother.

strawberry2017 · 14/04/2023 08:07

Those boxes are just there to pander to the women who decide to become men but then decide to do the one thing that only a women can do.
I wouldn't want them filling in. Only women can have babies.

PaleBlueMoonlight · 14/04/2023 08:14

Yes, I suppose it should be "sex" and "legal sex if different" with a note on why the latter is asked for.

DipsyLaLaPo · 14/04/2023 08:50

Doesn't make sense anyway, since as far as I understand any of this nonsense, sex, and sex assigned at birth, would be the same thing?

PaleBlueMoonlight · 14/04/2023 08:50

Though obviously only the second question is needed at a booking in! "Legal sex if different from biological sex"

DipsyLaLaPo · 14/04/2023 08:51

Oh just realised my error on legal sex. So she assumed your legal sex. What a mess

Tarantullah · 14/04/2023 08:52

She probably leaves it blank as the answer is obvious and can't be anything other than female. Maternity doesn't have separate IT systems so the form is probably just part of a larger system and the midwife has taken the sensible approach of not bothering to ask when the person is pregnant.

PermanentTemporary · 14/04/2023 08:53

I'd agree the data must be a total mess. What a crapshow.

MissMaple82 · 14/04/2023 09:07

ApplesandPares · 13/04/2023 23:26

Maybe she does understand and leaves it blank as she, too, thinks it’s bollocks.

Yeah, this. I'd ignore that question too

latetothefisting · 14/04/2023 09:07

Tarantullah · 14/04/2023 08:52

She probably leaves it blank as the answer is obvious and can't be anything other than female. Maternity doesn't have separate IT systems so the form is probably just part of a larger system and the midwife has taken the sensible approach of not bothering to ask when the person is pregnant.

Right but if that is true she should have filled in sex at birth as female and left legal sex blank or filled in both as female.

Because in order to get pregnant OP would have had to be biologically female at birth. She couldn't be a transwoman and get pregnant.

However she could be a "legal" (trans)man and still be pregnant (although given presumably she had access to ops other records which listed her as Ms/mrs/whatever she could make a reasonable assumption OP identified as female but without asking her it was only an assumption).

In order to be accurate both boxes should have been ticked
If the staff member thinks it's bleeding obvious (and I've been the person having to ask these awkward questions!) then she should have left both boxes empty.
If for some reason she only wanted to tick 1 box then she should have ticked the one for sex at birth because out of the 2 options that's the only 1 she could KNOW without asking OP.

That's OPs point- it's very very likely that these forms aren't being filled in correctly or uniformly and therefore that's a huge worry for data collection.

Kdubs1981 · 14/04/2023 09:15

forgotmyusername1 · 14/04/2023 06:37

Maybe she just couldn't face asking someone growing a baby in their uterus 'so sundae, can you please confirm if you are a man or a woman'

Absolutely this. I refuse to ask because it's fucking ridiculous

latetothefisting · 14/04/2023 22:56

op this is sort of linked and interesting
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/12/transgender-population-uk-inflated-ons-census/
"separate ONS data published last week showed that those who speak English “not well” or “not well at all” were most likely to be counted as transgender, at 2.2 per cent. This compared with 0.4 per cent of those whose main language is English or Welsh. As a result, those who speak English poorly are five times more likely to be transgender.
Furthermore, adults whose main language is not English made up 10 per cent of the overall population but, according to the census, they contributed 29 per cent of the transgender numbers. The figures also show that one in 67 Muslims is transgender, a figure which Professor Biggs claims is “not plausible”.

another example of people (particularly those for whom english isn't their first languagw) don't understand questions around trans/gender ID so we end up with ridiculous data

this is a particularly worrying example because if someone hadn't queried these results it's easy to see how they could be used for a basis to argue for increased funding, pass legislation, etc.

'Confusing census' means UK transgender population may be smaller than thought

An investigation has been launched over whether certain people understood a trans census question

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/12/transgender-population-uk-inflated-ons-census

Throwncrumbs · 14/04/2023 23:33

I can tell you that the form filling that medical professionals have to do is beyond ridiculous. When I started nursing many moons ago there were questions on forms that I just used to ignore because its obvious when you have a patient in front of you that a lot of them didn’t need answering (unless of course you wanted to look like a complete idiot to the patient). I’ve just been in hospital and not once was I asked what I identify as!

pink9798 · 09/08/2023 11:06

I know this is not what OP was getting at but there is just too much misinformation in this feed. If they are a medical professional they should know that scientifically sex is biological and gender is socially constructed, plenty of trans people have children and they don't deserve to be dehumanised because one midwife doesn't want ask a question, trans people have been around forever it is not just a new fad - also intersex people are as common as ginger people, and despite biologically having male and female parts are often assigned one gender at birth. Many people don't even find this out until later on in life so biological sex cannot be assumed to be the same as gender even if you're a transphobe - especially in something as precarious and serious as antenatal care. The paperwork misunderstanding issues are more to do with the lack of accessibility than gender being too confusing.

Ourladycheesusedatum · 09/08/2023 11:11

pink9798 · 09/08/2023 11:06

I know this is not what OP was getting at but there is just too much misinformation in this feed. If they are a medical professional they should know that scientifically sex is biological and gender is socially constructed, plenty of trans people have children and they don't deserve to be dehumanised because one midwife doesn't want ask a question, trans people have been around forever it is not just a new fad - also intersex people are as common as ginger people, and despite biologically having male and female parts are often assigned one gender at birth. Many people don't even find this out until later on in life so biological sex cannot be assumed to be the same as gender even if you're a transphobe - especially in something as precarious and serious as antenatal care. The paperwork misunderstanding issues are more to do with the lack of accessibility than gender being too confusing.

First ZOMBIE THREAD
Second
Where did you hear intersex is as common as ginger? Why do you think intersex have both sexually reproductive parts?

pink9798 · 09/08/2023 11:27

Ourladycheesusedatum · 09/08/2023 11:11

First ZOMBIE THREAD
Second
Where did you hear intersex is as common as ginger? Why do you think intersex have both sexually reproductive parts?

Show quote history

It popped up on my feed lol sorry

I read a lot of journals etc but here's a quick link https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/10/its-intersex-awareness-day-here-are-5-myths-we-need-to-shatter/ though to be fair this is disputed a little! Regardless, there are definitely interest people that have babies

Intersex is a spectrum so some do have both parts some don't, some can get pregnant some can't, I was just saying its a shame medical professionals bring their own biases into these appointments when there is so much more to it than using correct pronouns <3 everyone deserves respect

OvaHere · 09/08/2023 11:38

The way Mumsnet works months old threads do not pop up in the feed unless someone bumps them by adding a post. In this case the person who did that was you.

I assume in order to add highly inaccurate talking points.

pink9798 · 09/08/2023 12:06

I don't think I said any inaccurate? I've just realised it's because I was searching booking appointments! My mistake! I have a lot of lovely trans friends and I have seen a bit of misinformation in this thread so just wanted to offer some information, there's really no need to be rude :)