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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

I had my booking appointment this week

109 replies

SundaeClub · 13/04/2023 22:31

At the end I looked over at the midwife's computer screen.

In the section for my personal details, there were boxes for "Legal sex" and "Sex assigned at birth". Fine. Seems like comprehensive data collection.

Except that my "sex assigned at birth" was left blank. As this was a maternity appointment, the answer to this question is self-evident. No reason for it to be left blank.

And my "legal sex" was filled in as female. She didn't ask me my legal sex, and had no way of knowing if I had a GRC.

My midwife was very nice. She also spoke English as a second language. So I guess this goes in the new ONS bucket of opaque questions leading to poor data collection from the large section of the population that does not speak genderwang.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Waitwhat23 · 10/08/2023 07:47

Ourladycheesusedatum · 09/08/2023 18:59

So now you can "identify" as intersex?

Yet still no way to identify as a different age or race? Apparently its all kinds of impossible to be any age or race you choose. But a gender, have at it and now intersex.

I dont think you have any idea of the depth of this. You maybe should read around a bit, try
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread?page=32&reply=124734949

And
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?page=23&reply=101057943

Show quote history

There certainly seems to be a certain amount of women who are falsely identifying as 'intersex' due to having PCOS (which is not a DSD condition).

Wasn't Fausto - Stirling's claim of 'intersex is as common as red heads' completely debunked ages ago? It always seems like a blast from the past when a drive through scolder brings it up.

Dinopawus · 10/08/2023 08:05

And this is why we can look forward to newspaper headlines such as:

5% Rise in male pregnancies. (Should maternity pay be increased?)

[Captured] NHS trust saves money as male prostatectomies fall by 10%

ThomasinaLivesHere · 10/08/2023 12:16

@pink9798 Your claim about red hair and “intersex” is false. Some people have an interest in falsely representing DSD for their own interests.

I’d recommend listening to the BBC’s More or Less: Behind the Stats episode where they interview a doctor who specialises in sexual development disorders: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000222z

In order to get the percentage you’re suggesting you would have to include such minor conditions where basically a female’s ovaries or other part of sexual organs haven’t developed properly. I fail to see how that puts them on a spectrum towards being male.

pink9798 · 10/08/2023 14:02

ThomasinaLivesHere · 10/08/2023 12:16

@pink9798 Your claim about red hair and “intersex” is false. Some people have an interest in falsely representing DSD for their own interests.

I’d recommend listening to the BBC’s More or Less: Behind the Stats episode where they interview a doctor who specialises in sexual development disorders: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000222z

In order to get the percentage you’re suggesting you would have to include such minor conditions where basically a female’s ovaries or other part of sexual organs haven’t developed properly. I fail to see how that puts them on a spectrum towards being male.

As I said I am aware this is something that had been disputed, it was just to say that being transphobic is not reason to disregard important questions on questionnaires like OP pointed out as you cannot make assumptions in health care :) mental health is just as important as physical health in antenatal care ❤️ have a lovely day x

pink9798 · 10/08/2023 14:06

Waitwhat23 · 10/08/2023 07:47

There certainly seems to be a certain amount of women who are falsely identifying as 'intersex' due to having PCOS (which is not a DSD condition).

Wasn't Fausto - Stirling's claim of 'intersex is as common as red heads' completely debunked ages ago? It always seems like a blast from the past when a drive through scolder brings it up.

Show quote history

yes I did say it is a disputed figure, just that regardless of your beliefs people need to be heard and respected, also I said there were people who identify as this as someone told me it was offensive to use the term, but there are def people who have DSD and call themselves intersex, this is taken a little out of context :) not trying to hurt anyone here I just think everyone should be looked after when they’re having a baby, physically and mentally x

pink9798 · 10/08/2023 14:09

IcakethereforeIam · 09/08/2023 12:07

I thought @pink9798 was writing a parody.

Nothing funny about protecting parents 🥰🥰

pink9798 · 10/08/2023 14:11

RoseslnTheHospital · 09/08/2023 12:56

How would a midwife use pronouns incorrectly during an appointment? She would use your name or "you" as the second person personal pronoun.

I did have one midwife who called everyone "luvvy" regardless of how anyone felt about it.

You’re right I meant more in the context of them communicating your care to other healthcare providers, important to be respectful always ❤️ ahh I love a cute pet name that’s so sweet

pink9798 · 10/08/2023 14:20

NotBotheredAnymore · 09/08/2023 23:48

I go to gender studies journals
What the heck is that?

I am aware this is very complex
Surprisingly enough, no it isn't. People just pretend it is. I also don't think you understand what intersex actually is.

Where scientific peer reviewed research is published xx

Jk987 · 10/08/2023 14:25

If you had GRS to become a female then you wouldn't be pregnant! They cannot implant ovaries and uterus's into male bodies.

Kilopascal · 10/08/2023 14:31

pink9798 · 10/08/2023 14:20

Where scientific peer reviewed research is published xx

Show quote history

Scientific peer-reviewed research tends to be published in science journals, not gender studies journals.

Mental health matters, yes. But wrong medical treatment because your sex is unknown is more likely to kill you than a 'wrong' pronoun.

RoseslnTheHospital · 10/08/2023 14:39

" ahh I love a cute pet name that’s so sweet" - it wasn't sweet, it was infantilising and dismissive, and did not in any way make me feel like I was getting care from someone who was genuinely interested in me as an individual.

viques · 10/08/2023 15:20

pink9798 · 09/08/2023 11:27

It popped up on my feed lol sorry

I read a lot of journals etc but here's a quick link https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/10/its-intersex-awareness-day-here-are-5-myths-we-need-to-shatter/ though to be fair this is disputed a little! Regardless, there are definitely interest people that have babies

Intersex is a spectrum so some do have both parts some don't, some can get pregnant some can't, I was just saying its a shame medical professionals bring their own biases into these appointments when there is so much more to it than using correct pronouns <3 everyone deserves respect

Show quote history

“Intersex” is not a spectrum, indeed intersex is not a thing. The genetic conditions that cause a child to be born with a DSD are not on a spectrum either, each DSD has a unique chromosomal pattern or deviation from the normal configuration that is specific to that DSD. And it is increasingly well known that when the genetics and physiology of a person with a DSD is analysed , it is clear whether they are actually male or female however their genitals , and or other physical appearances present externally.

Sex is determined by the genes that we all possess and that are donated by our parents on conception. XX for female. XY for male. This is not a spectrum either, you are male or you are female. There are a very few people whose DNA varies from this and the DSDs associated with them are well documented.

Waitwhat23 · 10/08/2023 15:36

Indeed

I had my booking appointment this week
pink9798 · 10/08/2023 15:38

Kilopascal · 10/08/2023 14:31

Scientific peer-reviewed research tends to be published in science journals, not gender studies journals.

Mental health matters, yes. But wrong medical treatment because your sex is unknown is more likely to kill you than a 'wrong' pronoun.

Show quote history

gender studies is a social science, meaning they study human social behaviours and constructs (such as gender, education etc) using scientific methodologies :) xx

pink9798 · 10/08/2023 15:39

pink9798 · 10/08/2023 15:38

gender studies is a social science, meaning they study human social behaviours and constructs (such as gender, education etc) using scientific methodologies :) xx

Show quote history

And yes, this is exactly why the questions need to be thorough with no assumptions made, we are on the same page on this one!

Waitwhat23 · 10/08/2023 15:42

Did....you just agree with yourself?

EdithStourton · 10/08/2023 17:32

pink9798 · 10/08/2023 14:20

Where scientific peer reviewed research is published xx

Show quote history

<head explodes>
The social sciences are not 'proper' sciences. Anything that requires the word 'science' after it to try and make you think it's a science, isn't.

Also, I have read quite a lot of academic papers and some 'peer reviewed research' isn't worth the paper it's written on, never mind the salaries of the academics who churned it out.

Kilopascal · 10/08/2023 17:41

Hardline there, EdithStourton! Are you with Rutherford on the (probably apocryphal) 'Science is physics, and anything else is stamp collecting'?

pink9798 · 10/08/2023 18:11

Waitwhat23 · 10/08/2023 15:42

Did....you just agree with yourself?

hahaha I accidentally replied to wrong comment!

popebishop · 10/08/2023 18:19

So can you say which conditions you meant @pink9798 or can you at least admit you quoted a statistic without actually knowing what you were saying?

Can you acknowledge that doing that doesn't help anyone?

pink9798 · 10/08/2023 18:25

popebishop · 10/08/2023 18:19

So can you say which conditions you meant @pink9798 or can you at least admit you quoted a statistic without actually knowing what you were saying?

Can you acknowledge that doing that doesn't help anyone?

There are chromosomal conditions such as XXY, and autism can change perceptions and understanding of gender as a couple of examples that come to mind :) yes I have since acknowledged that it is a disputed figure, since someone mentioned it I have done some reading and found more out - it has been updated and I didn’t know yet! I am very open minded, I will readily change my view based on new information from a trusted source, I do a lot of reading and my views change accordingly, here my intention was to illustrate that there is no reason for biases to come into antenatal appointments, I am sorry to have upset you ❤️

pink9798 · 10/08/2023 18:30

EdithStourton · 10/08/2023 17:32

<head explodes>
The social sciences are not 'proper' sciences. Anything that requires the word 'science' after it to try and make you think it's a science, isn't.

Also, I have read quite a lot of academic papers and some 'peer reviewed research' isn't worth the paper it's written on, never mind the salaries of the academics who churned it out.

Show quote history

I agree there is lots of published research that is not worth reading, you wonder how some of these people got qualified! But as I’m sure you already know with breadth and depth of reading you can make informed judgements on what to trust :) perhaps you have already and have settled into your positivist standpoint but if not, I would implore you to look into ontology and epistemology before drawing black and white statements like that about science! So interesting and really eye opening! ❤️

pink9798 · 10/08/2023 18:36

LoobiJee · 10/08/2023 06:57

“It's about affirming, supporting and empowering your patients while they go through potentially the biggest transition of their life.”

No, it’s not.

What it’s actually about is:

  • keeping the mother and baby alive;
  • getting mother and baby through pregnancy, childbirth and the neonatal period with the minimum physical damage possible to them.

In midwifery and maternity, pronouns are not anywhere near the top of the list of the most important thing for the NHS to be focusing on. That would be the excess negative outcomes (that means deaths, by the way) for black women.

That “affirming, supporting, and empowering” catchphrase sounds like the publicity material of a self-identifying gender doctor running a commercial enterprise. In that scenario, describing it as being all about those three buzzwords would be accurate, as minimising physical damage to patients doesn’t appear to be much of a priority in that particular sector. As we are seeing from increasing cases of detransitioners.

I found this statement interesting in the context of a ZOMBIE thread bring bumped, accidentally of course. “I go to gender studies journals and the communities with lived experience for my information,”

The reason I started chatting here was because I was scrolling through booking appointment posts prior to my own and saw some unkind things being said about trans people so popped in a little bit of what I know, I really hope people wouldn’t believe me as bible and do their own research! For example, I have learned that the stats I posted initially have been debunked - someone mentioned it here and I read up! So not as opposing as you’ve made it seem :)

as a pregnant person with both physical and mental health issues I would hope that my midwives do not disregard my mental health based on their own political agendas, and for some, being misgendered can have an impact, especially ❤️

in health and social care education you often learn about the importance of holistic care, and proper support in ALL regards can hugely improve health outcomes :)

EdithStourton · 10/08/2023 19:24

Seriously, @pink9798 I would suggest that you familiarise yourself with the nature of this board, and some of the conversations that have been had on it. There are some very, very knowledgeable people on here. Most of us have thought about the issues you raise in considerable detail. Many of us have trans friends or trans family members.

What concerns many of us is the end point of this ideology, which will erase women as a sex class based on biology and will also result (indeed, has already resulted) in horrific fallout. There was a link upthread. It might be a good idea to have a read.

pink9798 · 10/08/2023 19:29

EdithStourton · 10/08/2023 19:24

Seriously, @pink9798 I would suggest that you familiarise yourself with the nature of this board, and some of the conversations that have been had on it. There are some very, very knowledgeable people on here. Most of us have thought about the issues you raise in considerable detail. Many of us have trans friends or trans family members.

What concerns many of us is the end point of this ideology, which will erase women as a sex class based on biology and will also result (indeed, has already resulted) in horrific fallout. There was a link upthread. It might be a good idea to have a read.

I am certain there are, my putting my two cents in doesn’t take away from anyone else’s knowledge ❤️ From what I have learned trans rights benefit cis women more than take away from us for example by breaking down beauty standards, reframing gender roles and the creations of spaces for us to explore any facet of our identities.. I am curious to know what is the horrible fallout you have seen?

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