I had my booking appointment this week

[SundaeClub]

At the end I looked over at the midwife's computer screen.

In the section for my personal details, there were boxes for "Legal sex" and "Sex assigned at birth". Fine. Seems like comprehensive data collection.

Except that my "sex assigned at birth" was left blank. As this was a maternity appointment, the answer to this question is self-evident. No reason for it to be left blank.

And my "legal sex" was filled in as female. She didn't ask me my legal sex, and had no way of knowing if I had a GRC.

My midwife was very nice. She also spoke English as a second language. So I guess this goes in the new ONS bucket of opaque questions leading to poor data collection from the large section of the population that does not speak genderwang.

I thought @pink9798 was writing a parody.

Also this is tagged as feminism, sex and gender chat so I feel respectfully communicating information on the topic was fair

Intersex should not be used as a term as it’s more commonly known as DSD, differences in sex development and I find it offensive in how it’s gets used in the trans argument. DSD is a medical problem and regardless we are either female or male, whether we like it or not. I was born with what they termed “ambiguous genitalia” and wasn’t assigned anything. Even 40+ years ago I was given a chromosome test to determine my sex.

Wow thank you so much for sharing, I handnt heard that. I do apologise for offending you, I'll make sure to be more careful in the future.

Also apologies if unclear, I am not using it for the 'trans argument', I meant that midwives shouldn't be making assumptions about gender and sex at all because it is complex and sensitive.

Why is 'gender' relevant to medical treatment?

Maybe she just hates the cringy and inaccurate phrase 'sex assigned at birth' so very much that she preferred to roll thendice with 'legal sex'. She'll often get the legal sex right by guessing. She'll never get the other right because no one is assigned a sex at birth. It's observed and noted.

How do you think you would feel if your midwife used the wrong pronouns for you in your antenatal appointments? It's about affirming, supporting and empowering your patients while they go through potentially the biggest transition of their life. Also, there may be things such as hormone treatments or previous gender affirming surgeries that need to be known about, or physiological differences, whether cis or trans.

The midwife will be using the patient's name and the second person singular when conversing.

Every single patient in every maternity unit on the planet is female. Every single human who has ever lived was gestated in and birthed by a female.

We are placental mammals; the female half of which gestates and lactates. It literally defines us.

How would a midwife use pronouns incorrectly during an appointment? She would use your name or "you" as the second person personal pronoun.

I did have one midwife who called everyone "luvvy" regardless of how anyone felt about it.

If someone is having a baby then it should say sex: female as a prepopulated field that cannot be adjusted as there's no need. There could be a field with something around which gender do you align with, I don't agree that gender is a thing personally but at least that way its not denying biological reality.

Your concern that a midwife uses the wrong pronouns when dealing with a pregnant woman claiming to be a man, would suggest pink9798 that you have never birthed a baby.
The biggest transition in any woman's life who becomes pregnant is having the baby and all the following years of commitment - pronouns will be a complete irrelevance. 😂

This is very ignorant to be fair.

I have no idea what pronouns are right or wrong for me - how do I find out?

Btw @pink9798 it's hugely offensive to say that intersex is as common as being ginger. For that stat to be true you are saying that thousands of men and women living with DSDs - that only apply to one sex or the other- aren't really men or really women.

Please, do educate yourself on this. Find out which conditions you include when you quote this stat, and think for yourself about why it's wrong to say these people are "intersex". Bear in mind some go hand in hand with fertility issues and ask yourself if you think that makes someone "not really" their sex.

What 'wrong pronouns' might she use? I assume she'd use 'you' when talking to me.

Hormone treatments and previous surgery to alter the appearance of genitalia and/or secondary sex characterisicts are medical treatments, which could obviously be relevant to any later medical treatment, but this is nothing to do with 'gender'. Detransitioners exist.

I think there are some assumptions being made about ym comment that aren't true. I just think every single person that has a baby deserves to be respected for who they are.

There is large community of people who identify themselves as intersex, and I'm sure plenty who don't. My point was not that they are 'not one or the other' but that no-one should make assumptions about these things.

Peace and love to you all

Unless things have changed hugely in the past few years, I think you'll find the midwives all call you mum, in a slightly tie curling fashion. Hey ho.

Toe curling, even. Tie curling is probably a gendered activity.

So now you can "identify" as intersex?

Yet still no way to identify as a different age or race? Apparently its all kinds of impossible to be any age or race you choose. But a gender, have at it and now intersex.

I dont think you have any idea of the depth of this. You maybe should read around a bit, try
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread?page=32&reply=124734949

And
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?page=23&reply=101057943

So do you actually know what you mean when you say "intersex" or are you being dishonest when you use them in your claims?

You don't seem too keen on the idea of educating yourself on this. That doesn't exactly demonstrate that you respect people for who they are. At all.

I go to gender studies journals and the communities with lived experience for my information, I am aware this is very complex, which is why everyone needs to be treated with respect ❤️ have a lovely day x

I go to gender studies journals
What the heck is that?

I am aware this is very complex
Surprisingly enough, no it isn't. People just pretend it is. I also don't think you understand what intersex actually is.

I would agree @pink9798 that what people say about who they are has meaning and shouldn't be dismissed without listening.

If a pregnant woman says they are a man, then clearly they have been through something significant to say that, and it has a meaning for them that I may not fully understand. Likewise if someone says they are 'intersex' it has a meaning for them.

It's not true though, as in factually true in a way that can be objectively determined. And that does matter. It also has impacts on others - insisting that men can be pregnant affects women because it is a lie that has implications for all women. That is not a small thing.

“It's about affirming, supporting and empowering your patients while they go through potentially the biggest transition of their life.”

No, it’s not.

What it’s actually about is:

• keeping the mother and baby alive;
• getting mother and baby through pregnancy, childbirth and the neonatal period with the minimum physical damage possible to them.

In midwifery and maternity, pronouns are not anywhere near the top of the list of the most important thing for the NHS to be focusing on. That would be the excess negative outcomes (that means deaths, by the way) for black women.

That “affirming, supporting, and empowering” catchphrase sounds like the publicity material of a self-identifying gender doctor running a commercial enterprise. In that scenario, describing it as being all about those three buzzwords would be accurate, as minimising physical damage to patients doesn’t appear to be much of a priority in that particular sector. As we are seeing from increasing cases of detransitioners.

I found this statement interesting in the context of a ZOMBIE thread bring bumped, accidentally of course. “I go to gender studies journals and the communities with lived experience for my information,”

Ridiculous. And congratulations!

The NHS is totally captured as we know. I started a thread a few hours ago about my recent experience on a children’s ward with my daughter and pronoun badges for staff which has been hidden for some reason. This ideology has no place in healthcare settings for women and children, for patients or staff.