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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How the framing of the gender question in the Census has produced invalid data

69 replies

IwantToRetire · 09/04/2023 23:35

The census data released this week added to the list of anomalies. Muslims are almost three times more likely than non-religious people to identify as transgender. Black people are four times more likely than white people to identify as transgender. In every case, the census results contradict what we know from other data. For example, referrals to the Tavistock’s Gender Identity Development Service include far more white and non-religious youth than the overall population of the same age. By contrast, those census results are what would be expected if a number of people with poor English were confused by the question and inadvertently classified themselves as transgender.

The ONS has also finally this week released customised data showing the tabulation of gender identity by proficiency in English. As predicted, those who speak English ‘not well’ or ‘not well at all’ were most likely to be counted as transgender: 2.2 per cent of them, compared to 0.4 per cent of those whose main language is English (or Welsh in Wales). Adults whose main language is not English made up only 10 per cent of the overall population, but according to the census they contributed 29 per cent of the transgender numbers.

How did the ONS manage to produce such implausible data on gender identity? In ‘a case study of policy capture’, the statisticians were guided by lobby groups like Stonewall. It is surely no coincidence that the gender question replicated, with minor variation, Stonewall’s definition of ‘cisgender’: ‘Someone whose gender identity is the same as the sex they were assigned at birth’.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-does-the-census-say-there-are-more-trans-people-in-newham-than-brighton/

OP posts:
IwantToRetire · 09/04/2023 23:52

Shame the title didn't mention Census which is what the article is about.

I hope that at least this means more will read the article which doesn't seem to be behind a paywall.

And use it when contacting MPs etc., to illustrate how conflating sex and gender erases facts.

And as the "facts" of the census is the basis on which governments are meant to make decision, that the recognise the danger of the trans ideology.

OP posts:
Bathhy · 10/04/2023 00:09

what framing you would find acceptable??

Transparent2 · 10/04/2023 00:13

Bathhy · 10/04/2023 00:09

what framing you would find acceptable??

If one is trying to find out who fits the ’trans umbrella’, I’m not sure there is any way of framing a question that would be comprehensible to someone with limited English vocabulary.

Bathhy · 10/04/2023 00:15

Transparent2 · 10/04/2023 00:13

If one is trying to find out who fits the ’trans umbrella’, I’m not sure there is any way of framing a question that would be comprehensible to someone with limited English vocabulary.

So do you believe we shouldn't ask the question or ask it anyway so trans people have representation and deal with a slight overrepresentation?

OliviaFlaversham · 10/04/2023 00:17

Bathhy · 10/04/2023 00:15

So do you believe we shouldn't ask the question or ask it anyway so trans people have representation and deal with a slight overrepresentation?

It needs to be asked in a way that people can understand what they are defining themselves as. Or not.

Bathhy · 10/04/2023 00:24

OliviaFlaversham · 10/04/2023 00:17

It needs to be asked in a way that people can understand what they are defining themselves as. Or not.

How do you believe the question should be asked then

twelly · 10/04/2023 00:27

I don't think there should have been a question about this as you can't change sex or gender.

Transparent2 · 10/04/2023 00:42

Bathhy · 10/04/2023 00:15

So do you believe we shouldn't ask the question or ask it anyway so trans people have representation and deal with a slight overrepresentation?

I should probably have spelled out that I don’t see any meaningful way of framing such a question because the trans umbrella covers a hotchpotch of ill-defined and inconsistent ‘identities’. Having spent quite a lot of time trying to understand what ‘trans’ means, I haven’t yet seen a coherent definition. Can you provide me with one?

VitaminX · 10/04/2023 00:59

Remember the discussion around this issue in the run up to the census - a lot of transgender people apparently decided to claim that they had always been female/male (i.e. the sex that they currently identified as, not the sex that they actually are), so that they wouldn't be recorded as transgender, scuppering their own representation. It would have been quite funny if it wasn't making such a mockery of what the census is supposed to achieve.

They might as well just throw all that data out the fucking window.

IwantToRetire · 10/04/2023 01:00

what framing you would find acceptable??

It has nothing whatsoever to do with "acceptable". It is to do with creating questions that get clear answers.

There were a number of threads about this at the time which you could search for.

This is hugely embarrassing for the "professionals" who designed this.

(Added to which some people said they would answer the sex question based on their identity not biological facts and not answer the gender question)

As the point of the census is to help provide services such as schools and housing it is not clear why a question that is only relevant to as tiny, tiny group of people was even included. (Well we don know it is because of political pressure, and the inclusion of the question wasn't for facts, but to create a precedent.)

It would just as important if not relevant to ask if you are vegetarian, because if that number is increasing then the UK farming industry needs to adapt as do importers of meat.

Unfortunately the census has always been subject to the political whims of the time.

But as so many people pointed out the problem with this question, and it has backfired it would be nice just for once, that the government (or whatever party) could just do the job in hand correctly.

OP posts:
Bathhy · 10/04/2023 01:02

Transparent2 · 10/04/2023 00:42

I should probably have spelled out that I don’t see any meaningful way of framing such a question because the trans umbrella covers a hotchpotch of ill-defined and inconsistent ‘identities’. Having spent quite a lot of time trying to understand what ‘trans’ means, I haven’t yet seen a coherent definition. Can you provide me with one?

Will my personal definition is someone with gender dysphoria who wishes/pursues transition into the opposite sex.

IwantToRetire · 10/04/2023 01:11

I've just checked the questions from the last census, and when you see them listed it is quite clear what the then Government wanted to know.

  • What is your name?
  • What is your date of birth?
  • What is your sex?
  • On 21 March 2021, what is your legal marital or registered civil partnership status?
  • Who is (was) your legal marriage or registered civil partnership to?
  • Do you stay at another address for more than 30 days a year?
  • What is that address?
  • Are you a schoolchild or student in full-time education?
  • During term time, where do you usually live?
  • What is your country of birth?
  • If you were not born in the United Kingdom, when did you most recently arrive to live here?
  • Including the time you have already spent here, how long do you intend to stay in the United Kingdom?
  • One year ago, what was your usual address?
  • How would you describe your national identity?
  • What is your ethnic group?
  • What is your religion?
  • What is your main language?
  • How well can you speak English?
  • What passports do you hold?
  • How is your health in general?
  • Do you have any physical or mental health conditions or illnesses lasting or expected to last 12 months or more?
  • Do any of your conditions or illnesses reduce your ability to carry out day-to-day activities?
  • Do you look after, or give any help or support to, anyone because they have long-term physical or mental health conditions or illnesses, or problems related to old age?
  • If you are aged 16 or over go to 26 – if you are aged 15 or under go to 51
  • Which of the following best describes your sexual orientation?
  • Is the gender you identify with the same as your sex registered at birth?
  • Have you completed an apprenticeship?
  • Have you achieved a qualification at degree level or above?
  • Have you achieved any other qualifications?
  • Have you previously served in the UK Armed Forces?
  • In the last seven days, were you doing any of the following?
  • Which of the following describes what you were doing in the last seven days?
  • In the last four weeks, were you actively looking for any kind of paid work?
  • If a job became available now, could you start it within two weeks?
  • In the last seven days, were you waiting to start a job already accepted?
  • Have you ever done any paid work?
  • Answer the remaining questions for your main job or, if not working, your last main job.
  • In your main job, what is (was) your employment status?
  • What is (was) the name of the organisation or business you work (worked) for?
  • What is (was) your full job title?
  • Briefly describe what you do (did) in your main job.
  • What is (was) the main activity of your organisation, business or freelance work?
  • Do (did) you supervise or oversee the work of other employees on a day-to-day basis?
  • If you had a job last week go to 47; If you were temporarily away from work last week go to 47; If you did not have a job last week go to 51
  • In your main job, how many hours a week do you usually work?
  • How do you usually travel to work?
  • Where do you mainly work?
  • What is the address of your workplace or depot?

Funny how they didn't ask whether Brexit had any impact, something they should have wanted to know afte 15 months of "freedom". Maybe if they had they could have done a bit more planning for the impact of the changes on our economy. Rather than finding out less than 1% had an "identity".

Also interesting that apparently only 3.5% say they are gay or lesbian, so interesting that this very small minority is given such a high profile in some work places and in the media.

Some other minorities must feel doubly discriminated against. Not only as for instance racial minority, but also overlooked in favour of less than !%.

OP posts:
VitaminX · 10/04/2023 01:11

Bathhy · 10/04/2023 01:02

Will my personal definition is someone with gender dysphoria who wishes/pursues transition into the opposite sex.

FYI, you're transphobic for defining it with reference to the mental health condition of gender dysphoria. Welcome to the club.

literalviolence · 10/04/2023 01:16

How about question 1. What is your biological sex (male, female) question 2. Do you have a gender identity (yes, no). Question 3. Are you trans identifying.

Does that work? It might be good to investigate what percentage of the population have a gender identity . I don't think it's much but proper data rather than assumptions are always useful).

Another question of what's your gender identity might be interesting but I'm notnsure whether they can do free text answers and as there are apparently 100.plus genders, this might lead to an unmanageable number of options.

Bathhy · 10/04/2023 01:20

VitaminX · 10/04/2023 01:11

FYI, you're transphobic for defining it with reference to the mental health condition of gender dysphoria. Welcome to the club.

Well that's my personal definition but if you asked me to make a legal definition it would be different

DarkDayforMN · 10/04/2023 02:51

I think the wording of the question that they used would have been fine if, similar to what literal suggested, they had put something like 'Do you consider yourself to have a "gender identity"?' prior to asking it, and made it clear that everyone who answers "no" should skip the bullshit question.

I am not an expert on survey design - I'm sure there's someone on here who is who can come along and correct me if I'm wrong! - but I would think that people who don't know what any of the bullshit means would simply answer no to "Do you consider yourself to have a 'gender identity'?" and move on.

I can see why they couldn't just ask "are you transgender" because whoever wanted this question presumably wanted to count nonbinary people (for whatever reason!), and some of them don't regard themselves as transgender.

GingerbreadBaking · 10/04/2023 02:53

https://twitter.com/STILLTish/status/1645077923496353792?s=19&t=VDIj8lyzxiF2howP7hj0GA

The ONS is very inclusive of some.

Inclusive employers don't always seem to be able to achieve the tasks the taxpayers fund them to achieve.

https://twitter.com/STILLTish/status/1645077923496353792?s=19&t=VDIj8lyzxiF2howP7hj0GA

PriOn1 · 10/04/2023 04:45

So 10% of the population say that English is not their mother tongue?

Yet even outside the census, language is being mutilated for less than 1% of the population to the detriment of all those people.

Not remotely inclusive then, as we have frequently stated.

And Stonewalling and changing laws and all the utter bullshit that is going on is occurring for 0.5% of the population. You really do have to ask why that tiny group is so very privileged when it comes to politicians forcing societal change and corporate companies and public bodies changing policies on their behalf.

nettie434 · 10/04/2023 05:33

Thanks for the link Iwanttoretire. It's an interesting article and a sad reflection of the problems that arise when questions that need to be comprehensible to as many people as possible are 'captured' by activists. The article points out:

The problem began with the question itself. The ONS did not ask a plain question like: ‘Are you transgender?’ Instead, it chose a convoluted formulation: ‘Is the gender you identify with the same as your sex registered at birth?’

The reason why the sex registered at birth question was included was because some transgender people said they would answer the sex question according to their chosen gender identity. The irony is that it now makes it harder to see evidence of discrimination - eg if transgender people are over represented among people not in paid employment.

I really hope this will make those who write information leaflets for the chest feeders and cervix havers realise that by privileging one group they are discriminating against those who need information in clear and simple language.

Rainbowshit · 10/04/2023 06:36

Well who'da thunk it? Oh yeah everyone that pointed itout at the time. 🙄

Ingenieur · 10/04/2023 07:10

GingerbreadBaking · 10/04/2023 02:53

https://twitter.com/STILLTish/status/1645077923496353792?s=19&t=VDIj8lyzxiF2howP7hj0GA

The ONS is very inclusive of some.

Inclusive employers don't always seem to be able to achieve the tasks the taxpayers fund them to achieve.

Wow, and that CV... so many gov depts captured!

MrsOvertonsWindow · 10/04/2023 07:41

The ONS were so captured by the trans lobby that Fair Play for Women had to take a successful challenge to the courts to stop the census question about sex being about self identification! Look at how seriously compromised they were when their QC argued that:

"..sex was an ‘umbrella term’ that includes a range of concepts such as ‘lived’ and ‘self-identified’ sex. He also claimed that asking about a person’s sex as recognised by law risks a breach of Article 8 of the Human Rights Act, which relates to privacy".

Embarrassing to see how how low a once respected organisation dealing in public data sinks when captured by the gender woowoo zealots.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/fair-play-for-women-wins-high-court-challenge-against-ons-census/

Fair Play For Women wins High Court challenge and judge orders sex must not be self-identified in the Census

Fair Play For Women have today won their High Court challenge against the Office for National Statistics. The ONS has conceded that the proper meaning of Sex in the Census means sex as recognised by law. The High Court has now ordered “What is your sex...

https://fairplayforwomen.com/fair-play-for-women-wins-high-court-challenge-against-ons-census

IdaGoodnight · 10/04/2023 08:02

Did you see the job titles for the ONS Deputy Director…

“Director of Transformational Change” - DEFRA

WTF. I’d like to see that job’s profile.

Clymene · 10/04/2023 08:06

I'd forgotten about that @MrsOvertonsWindow. This is all beginning to make sense now. I thought it was incompetence at the time but it seems it was much more calculated