Teenage DD, general shit I'm absolutely fed upwith Re being a man

[LadyHag]

Yep, as title shows, it's one of these situations and tonight I am sat in bed having a massive cry as I am fucking well fed up with my naive, stupid, dd and if that sounds awful. I don't mean to be but I m just fed up.

DD in gcse year, over years at high school quiet, very few friends, anxious, hardly any self confidence, self harm issues a coupke of years ago. Hates anything where their achievements will be measured, if that makes sense, or in comparison to. Peers (had to drop a course at school as went into a huge panidlc their work would be shown with other pupils so hers would look rubbish, so she thought) yet won't push herself, prefers to withdraw and not challenge herself - very much a head in sand person

Anyway, during the general shit storm of past coupke of years we found dd had been in hidden chat rooms, discord et,c and chatting to (apparently-who can tell online e?) teenagers all bigging up saying they were trans, wearing maid outfits, nothing about dysmorphia etc that would imply a serious identity crisis, but obvious teenage attention etc.

DD loves this - here is a club anyone can join and there us no test you have to pass, no minimum criteria, you say you are trans and that's it, you're in with the cool kids. Dd is so naive she will not question anything she is told. We removed her phone for a long time while trying to. Get support for her and was told she needs to have it back, even though we were concerned she was abandoning the very few real. Life friendships at school to. Invest on online e groups that seemed to. Thrive by love bombing each other.

So, dd comes out with all the usual trans stuff, she told and event guest she was a man when asked about herself and was delighted that the organisers apologised to ger for not making a safe space, she loved the attention. She admits she likes to shock people to get attention but then worries about peopke looking at her, says she is a man, she is a gay male, some days she is 'T' and some days she is not, had been wearing a binder but didn't understand how it can damage breasts and on the says she is not 'T' the breasts over time won't just bounce back up. She seemed genuinely suprised by this.

We have had goth phases, trans phases, retro clothing phases, wanting items like the tiktok strawberry dress because other people have it

Now she has tonight told me for prom she needs a man's suit to look more masculine on photos.

I am absolutely fed up. I am worn out.

She is brainwashed, doesn't think of anything g long term, has stopped any after school clubs etc, the only club she will go to. In school is LGBT because hey guess what! Unlike knitting (people can see what you knit and it might not look as good as someone else's!) art club (people can see your drawings and it might not be as good as soneone else's!) debate club (people can listen to your debate and it might not be.... You get the idea....

We had organised counselling but dd after a couple of session said she didn't want to do. It as she would have to face her insecurities so avoided it.. The counsellor said they can't force her to engage.

I'm just fed up. I want to shake her and point out she is just talking bollocks (she absolutely does not have dysmorphia or identity issues) but she is again dropping out of comparing herself to other girls as dd has short hair, refuses to exercise (I won't pick her up from schoil so she has to walk to ensure she gets some exercise as she won't walk or do physical activity at home) and school let her study instead of PE - so I know she looks at other girls in her year group and sees them as totally different as she is withdrawn, overweight (I NEVER say this to her) never had a boyfriend or girl friend I honestly think that she is using trans as an excuse for feeling like she is not as pretty, outgoing or confident as her peers.

The worst thing is she could be anything if she just tried, but she is so brittle and not willing to try hard / be brave with anything g she just uses the trans as a mask.

And I 'm just fucking fed up.

Sorry for the rant. I just am feeling so sad for her, so angry and so worn out.

Yes my DD is going through the assessment process atm and although I am not qualified to comment op, your words "dd habit of adopting identity of any group part of to prove sincerity of her friendship" jumped out at me as classic ASD masking behaviour; in the case of ASD it's partially about being desperate to fit in, and partially about not being sure of how the social interactions work, so you copy others in the group right down to clothing and manner of speaking etc.

changed to comment as could be outing.

I'm at a loss too with the pushing of 'trans'. I have a friend who is insistent (at 25) that they are now female (born male). They, however, very rarely wear female clothes, make up or make an effort to remove excess body hair. They insist you use their female name. The GP has told them that to begin treatment they must lose 2st+ and prove that they are living as a woman in more than just name - but they aren't. Their mother thinks it's attention seeking and I have to admit I agree. I also know of another young adult who is in the middle of transitioning F - M; the difference here is that they were never comfortable being female, even at a very young age and before it became 'cool'. They spent years living as a male without binders or anything before finally beginning treatment recently.

All I can suggest is what others have said; just try to support as far as possible, try and avoid the binding for now and hope that it will wear off before any major damage is done.

I'm glad that you and your DD found this useful.

We are currently going through the assessment process with DD.

No advice, except to get support for yourself, even if it’s just talking here. Such a hard situation for all of you ❤️

I worked in secondary education up until last year. We had five children who were non-binary (a boy and four girls) and two trans kids (girls who wanted to be boys). Out of these 7 kids, three of them were diagnosed with autism, one had elective mutism and I strongly suspect was on the autism spectrum, and two had come from backgrounds of severe abuse and trauma. There is such an obvious correlation between neurodivergence, mental health issues, trauma and gender stuff.

It’s the huge elephant in the room. Most school staff in my old school realised it. We had a few ‘affirmations without question’ types, but the vast majority of staff felt really worried about these children and at a loss as to what the right support for them was.

Hates anything where their achievements will be measured, if that makes sense, or in comparison to.

Has she been or is being bullied - because we've had issues with perfectionism and it was because others were making them feel shit about their achievements.

It was a younger age - we do think they are ND though no actual diagnoses yet.

I was quiet during classes and not wanting to get attention during my secondary school years because it led to bullying sometime physical and the school blame me and my parents had attitude of well you have to just ignore it. I was probably too stubborn to not do GCSE work - was very focused on getting out of the place - though also picked subjects where showing work was unlikely.

With our children ,though the time it was shit for them and us, fact they struggled and then with support and help and time got better with academic things was something that helped - pointing out how far they had come and craft things they'd improved with - also watching you tube dress makers artists DIY people who do make mistakes who are open about learning from them and learning as they go along.

I would look into ND - and I would try and take any confrontation out while quietly trying to suggest alternate view points - wild swans is a good book shows a society going insane and no-one feeling able to question - stuff in background.

Also where is she going post GCSE - new college sixth form - might be a change to find new group, try new things out.

Just to give some hope:

My DD claimed trans at age 13, friends at school had come out as trans and it didn't 'feel' like DD talking but she'd engaged very quickly and intensely with this new interest. Diagnosed autistic soon after via CAHMS who gave us contact details to a local LGBT charity (who weren't great at supporting DD and really only interested in their agenda).

Went through a lot of the usual trans stuff; talk of binders, top surgery, change of name, pronouns. I railed against it in the beginning but then realised that wasn't helping, so took a backseat with that. Gave my opinion on some things (top surgery) and told them that as a mum I wouldn't count myself a good parent if I didn't warn about the dangers of making these life changing decisions during adolescence when teens are seeking identity and acceptance. Also found DD a counsellor privately to talk things through with. Having that independent person helped DD see it wasn't me having a go, but that I was worried about her. The counsellor helped DD challenge her own thought processes.

DD is now 19, at Uni, no longer identifies as trans, shudders at the thought that she once considered top surgery. The online trans community has turned against her, labelled her a TERF and the scales have fallen. She now very much believes in watchful waiting and that surgery/hormones should not be given to vulnerable teens. She has embraced her autism, made friends, and her confidence in herself has soared.

So I would suggest watchful waiting, lots of love, and if you can, get them out into other things that interest them. If she is autistic then she may well show intense interests in things, so engage on that finding local groups that match those interests.

I also know of another young adult who is in the middle of transitioning F - M; the difference here is that they were never comfortable being female, even at a very young age and before it became 'cool'. They spent years living as a male without binders or anything before finally beginning treatment recently.

They are just a non-conforming woman, possibly a lesbian, and if they were able to make contact with other older lesbians and non-gender-conforming women they might well find that they don't need the drugs and surgery. They will of course always be a woman, always female, no matter what they do to themselves. Better to be an outstanding woman than a pretence of a man. Show them the sworn virgins programme: these women are amazing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001jh5w

just a small suggestion to throw into the mix

how about seeing if there is anywhere offering classes in traditionally ‘male’ trades for girls to try out?

plumbing, wood-working, power-tools, general diy etc

they can offer female space/colleagues, with the empowerment of learning new skills, & might appeal to your DD as they’re seen as traditionally ‘male’ skills?

and a thought on PP comment re how your DD will be watching you cope and so it’s good to model self-care etc -

any chance she’s seeing you having to cope with all the drama/emotional stuff and dad gets to go to work and return so ‘escaping’ having to deal with it

he’s talking with you of course but she might feel that being male would be ‘less complicated’

even with busy work schedule could your DH spend more time with her - maybe like above suggestion, do some things seen as ‘male’ with her?

just thinking that might break the cycle with you & her, give her positive male attention/role model in real life, make it seem as though you are valuing her ‘T’side whilst demonstrating that she can do all these things as a girl

not sure if above is clear <face palm>

think I mean just lean into the doing of ‘male’ stuff and maybe she’ll realise part way through that she’s perfectly able to do these ‘male’ things and be female at the same time

and more time with dad - or even the difficulty of scheduling more time with dad - might also demonstrate that while society is set up for male benefit, that individual males still (mostly) have responsibilities, stresses, concerns and pressures too

Does she have any hobbies especially ones which require no competition but steady application and maybe physical exertion? Horse riding is great for this, or anything to do with animals - caring for something beyond here self and learning the amazing capacities of her body

Or music? Something that gets her out of her head and the narcissistic focus on her feelings and interiority.

Good luck - the pandemic and the awful constant pressure of school, testing and measuring and comparing children’s achievements is awful. I see them arrive at university, already exhausted.

One thing that DS did that might help her employment was half a day a week in a charity shop. Half a day shouldn't impact on her GCSEs and it would give her retail experience.

BugLight - yes that does make sense get ithaga!

Dh takes her out where she listens to music in the cat, chats when she wants to, they have a laugh so all good, but the nitty gritty is left alone.

Music is a big outlet for her.

Would love to get her into clubs, workshops, anything but she will not entertain it, adopts a brittle sneering attitude that anyone there is a closer etc when really it's her bei g shit scared of being with other people, self confidence etc.... I'm sure lots of ypu all recognise what's going on here.

I think job and or volunteering will be great as it will free her from many if her peers at school. That dally about in trans but can't see dd trying it for a laugh but in her nativity throwing herself into it to prove her sincerity as a friend, even though most if not all don't have anything g to do with her out of school.

Re adhd / autism etc, I tjink I am going to have to look at this, I can talk to my parents who would help with the cost so it would be less of a struggle, however I think the trick is explaining to dd why we are doing it as anything that she perceives as challenging. Questioning or probing the trans issue will really antagonise her.

I really really really appreciate everyone's posts, I can't stress how helpful, supportive and reassuring they are. Honestly, you are all worth your weight in gold.

When you have conversations with her do you actually have a to and fro conversation? It was one of the questions I had during DDs assessment and it through me as I though we did but generally I will ask her a question and she'll reply but won't continue the conversation ie
"How was your day?"
"Fine, I had a supply teacher in maths"
And then she wouldn't ask the question back. Didn't pick up on conversational cliff hangers either. But if it was a topic she wanted to talk about she talks at you not really to you.

My daughter instigated the autism referral. She wanted it. We did it through the GP last July and we are being seen and assessed now at CYPS.

So much of what you say sounds like my daughter. I have no idea whether she has autism or not. But I think the assessment and process it’s something that she feels she needs to do and I’m interested to see whether she fits the criteria.

It’s such a hard journey with the trans-stuff. you have my sympathy. Have you got any good friends you can talk about it with?

One thing that hasn't been picked up on in this thread is that she is in Y11. It's an immensely stressful year for all students, and I'm hearing from many parents of Y11s that their kids are being absolutely vile at home, or falling apart, even if it's not particularly apparent at school.

Your DD has in the past at least had the routine of school. Now she will have everyone asking her "What are you doing next year? College? A-levels? Staying on or leaving?" Those are actually really stressful questions for children who don't know the answer and they'll be bombarded with choices. "What do you want to do?" I DON'T KNOW.

And the exams are approaching, which is stressful. But then after the exams when she is supposed to be relaxing, the day of reckoning is getting closer and closer.

No wonder she's trying on all these different hats and seeing whether any of them fit. She's been asked what she wants to do so often she's not even sure who she is.

Maybe you should say that she can experiment all she likes, but nothing permanent.

And if she doesn't know what she wants to do, look at things that she can do which will keep her options open for a bit longer while she decides.

Stella O’Malley’s podcasts, Gender A Wider Lens might be useful. Really gentle, informative and focused on taking things slowly and supporting parents as the experts in their DC.

@Pluvia Better to be an outstanding woman than a pretence of a man.

👏 one hundred times this!

Your DD has in the past at least had the routine of school. Now she will have everyone asking her "What are you doing next year? College? A-levels? Staying on or leaving?" Those are actually really stressful questions for children who don't know the answer and they'll be bombarded with choices. "What do you want to do?" I DON'T KNOW.

DN now has a path forward with college is she does okay or if she missed a few grades and its relaxed her a lot. DS has a path which he should find easy enough. So there is stress and uncertainly but they're both very positive about going somewhere new - their schools sadly changed since covid and neither is very happy at all at them- and having a plan has reduced their stress a fair bit.

I suppose if she is happy or more comfortable at her school post 16 might be very daunting.

In both cases the teachers are pretty good but the school leadership do seem to be suddenly catastrophizing at the kids which is making DN switch off and avoid work and DS to alternate between stressed to point of feeling overwhelmed and eye rolling rather than the intended, I assume, work harder.

Sounds like a trope but very true. But also all sorts of other mh difficulties.

I have taught a couple of autistic girls (and boys) with extreme perfectionism which inhibits their ability to take part in many things so it is a possibility.

Unfortunately the current education system has focused on competitive closed mindsets rather than growth mindset which makes it harder for anyone who naturally thinks like this .

Whether or not your DD has autism you and she could benefit from using the strategies. Non violent communication also uses similar strategies. Stuff like making an observation "this bedroom needs tidied", or now and next, forced choices A or B etc.

You don't have to wait for a referral to get reading and learning. Is there an autism parents support group in your area? Or online if not.

As others have said, the pandemic response was particularly cruel on children and young people locked out of school for months on end at critical point of development.

It's like slamming your head against a brick wall, how has equality gone so far they wrong way and how are they so blind to it!!!!!!!!

This is a common comment of mine. Genderism is the absolute epitome of sexist misogyny. The opposite of what women have worked so hard to resist. It’s the entrenchment of sexist stereotypes. As in now clothes = your gender.

DC’s friends talk about who is wearing the ‘most masculine’ clothes. Trying to ‘look like a boy’. But then this is sadly understandable given the hyper sexualisation of girls thanks to the Kardashian’s.

On some level I think they get it or some of it but never in a million years could they admit this. I was so thankful that at least Isla Bryson led us to agree that some TW are not W and we agreed to disagree on TW in sport.

I went through a period of heightened anxiety and self consciousness in my late teens and twenties. It didn't latch onto trans stuff because that wasn't the zeitgeist at the time. I was absolutely brilliant at avoiding things I was scared of - and like your daughter, at first these were things where I was self conscious of my performance - and ended up agoraphobic.

I have overcome that now, and I second the suggestions to spend time with animals or young children, ideally something physically active. When you suffer from depression and anxiety your brain zips about a lot in time, ruminating on the past or fretting about the future and you spend time worrying what other people are thinking about you (probably not a whole lot tbh!). Animals and young children live very much in the present and so you have to be here to interact with them. But they are also non threatening.

Physical activity also helps with connection to your body and staying present.

Whilst her performance anxiety is frustrating, she's not doing it to wind you up, she is feeling super self conscious to a crippling degree.

Part of my recovery was doing art - by myself from books and tutorial videos, then in groups - but not like school where everyone was working on the same thing, leisure classes where people were working on their own projects.

If there's a goal she'd like to work towards then graduated exposure - breaking it down into smaller goals building up in difficulty. Then do the first one until it is boring (opposite of scary, right?) before moving on to the next can be a helpful approach. But it has to be towards something she wants to do and it sounds like at the moment she's scoffing of things out with her comfort zone. The thing about avoiding anxiety is that fundamentally it doesn't work and your comfort zone shrinks and shrinks until you actively work to expand it. Confidence comes from choosing to go out of that zone, repeatedly and learning that you can cope.

Learning to activate the body's calming response in order to switch off the fight/flight/freeze response is helpful too - calming techniques like mindfulness. (It's the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems but I forget which is which) but your body can't run both routines at once, so learning how to activate the calming one consciously when she's not anxious can help once she's built the habit.

I'd let her go in a suit to prom. I didn't go to mine (avoidance queen 👑) but I wouldn't have worn a dress if I had. I doubt she'll be the only female not to.

Get her screened for autism. So many classic signs in your OP. Rejection sensitive dysphoria is a real thing and can make comparison with peers feel painful. Supposed to be a sign of ADHD but there is so much overlap between ADHD and autism these days and many are thought to have both.

I'm autistic FWIW and I would start there.

Pluvia · Today 12:37
Re the Albanian women who live as men but who do not claim they are men.
I saw that programme too. They are amazing, and so admirable. It is a shame in a way these are the last of them now that women have more freedom in general.

Thanks everyone.

If I look at private screen g / assessment, had anyone used a service they found reputable, thorough and genuinely helpful??

There's a short anthology put together by a lesbian couple, it's called 'You Were Supposed To Be Different: An Anthology of Harm'

The stories are very confronting, but they're from either current or former people of gender who experience the harm brought to women by the queer community, which is very clear about centering men. Some of the women also work out the lies they were fed, and how regressive it all is.

I'm thinking of putting together a zoom call sometime for moms in your situation, to share what I've learned as someone who desisted after seeing how aggressively misogynistic it all is, and also some tips about how to do psychological warfare on the people grooming your daughters. There's a worrying number of similar stories popping up, and I think I can help understand the DARVO some, or at least read from pertinent books.