How important is it that sports need to be separated by sex or gender? Why not do what they do in boxing?

[herdingcatss]

Hear me out.. I'm all for inclusion and diversity as a whole. but I'm not in favour of transwomen taking part in women's sports as they do have unfair physical advantages etc etc. They even play the same game differently (google transwoman volleyball player). I do get that and believe that if you have sports separated by physical biology than that is what it should be, and gender identity shouldn't come into it.

But when it comes to team sports, surely there could be a new approach that could help solve the issue of including transwomen and where to put them? Otherwise the option is to have them muscle their way into women's sports which is obvs unfair to women, and it's not realistic to have lots of separate teams to cater for different identities.

Personally, I think that we should think about doing away with separating team sports by sex or gender altogether for a new approach - for example maybe do what they do in boxing - ie: match people by weight and/or skill to compete with each other, or to work together in a team. TBH I don't know much about boxing so i could be wrong, but from what I understand, they match players in terms of whether they're lightweight, middleweight or heavyweight, to make it equal (I know boxing is still separated by sex but this is why I'm focusing on teams instead).

If we have teams set up for the same weight category, then they have the option of focusing on obtaining the skills they need as a whole, and can bring in people based on their strongest skills in the game, whether they are men, women, trans etc. Then teams from the same categories could play each other in tournaments etc and it wouldn't matter what gender/sex they are made up of.

So basically it's an overhaul to the way traditional sports is run. But it's just an idea as I think we need a new way of looking at sports in society, to move the subject on, as the discussion seems to be at a stalemate at the moment with little progress going on imo. It's tiring!

Anyway do you think this is a potential solution to the issue? Or have I missed something major? I don't play sports but if anyone does, I'd love to know what you think of this approach, and whether mixed teams of equal weights would work instead of being based on biology (or gender).

do you think it would be safe for a man and a woman of equal weight to box against each other?

spoiler: it would be very dangerous for the woman

your suggestion is lunacy

Males play on same teams as other males.

Males compete against other Males.

Females play on same teams as other females.

Females compete against other females.

Kids play on same teams as other kids.

Kids compete against other kids.

Kids are divided by sex into teams, divided by age from older/younger kids and adults.

greyhounds race against other greyhound, not humans.

horses race against other horses, not humans.

Ffs

What is so chuffing hard to understand?

But it's just an idea as I think we need a new way of looking at sports in society, to move the subject on, as the discussion seems to be at a stalemate at the moment with little progress going on imo. It's tiring! is “progress” mixed sex sport teams? If people wanted to play in mixed sex sports teams they would. How does hearing “no” tire you especially if you aren’t even involved in sport.

but boxing is separated by sex first and foremost.

Then subdivided into weight categories

absolutely no way could you have a man and a woman of the same weight fight each other - the woman would be in very serious danger

There’s a sure fire way of making sports fair and inclusive already op. Segregation by sex. Transwomen need to be made welcome in their fellow men’s sports, teams and facilities. Hth

So basically it's an overhaul to the way traditional sports is run. But it's just an idea as I think we need a new way of looking at sports in society, to move the subject on, as the discussion seems to be at a stalemate at the moment with little progress going on imo. It's tiring

what do you mean by "progress"? We dont need any "progress" in the way sports are categorised. male and female works fine. We just need to prevent people trying to move men into the female category, that is all

Why is it tiring to you?

I run against men claiming to be women in park run, and they steal my result every single time, and let me tell you, THAT is tiring.

Have you missed something major? Yes. Basic biology. Women are not smaller men. A big woman and a small man aren't the same thing. We have completely different sized organs, different bone density, different muscle and fat distribution. A small, not even well trained man could overpower a bigger athletically strong woman with relative ease. Sex categories exist for essential reasons in the vast majority of sports.

https://boysvswomen.com/#/

Let's imagine your scenario comes in, OP.

How many females will be playing football for England, do you think?

Despite england women outperforming the England men on the international stage, just how many of those women do you see being selected for your proposed "weight category" based mixed sex team?

If it's any more than zero, id suggest you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

I don’t understand. There are sports already who have mixed sex teams where it is safe to do so, or they have a safe version of the sport for mixed sex teams such as touch rugby.

You are missing something very important, when comparing males and females at the same weight, males have many advantages over females. Even with lowered testosterone.

You cannot unboil an egg. The advantages are there and they are not reversible, despite so many people wishing so, and if the sport is a contact sport it is very dangerous to mix the sexes unless it has specific modifications to make it safe for females to play with males.

YOur suggestion makes absolutely no sense what so ever. So is Arsenal supposed to run 17 different weight categories of football team now, is it? Instead of just the youth/ adutl/ male/female? And no team can be mixed weight?

so someone in featherweight, who trains in featherweight, who puts on a couple of pounds over Christmas, cant play in featherweight in January, and moves up a weight catagory, and plays in a team with different fixtures, with players they dont know and have not trained with, and surplants someone else?

And if Arsenal has 17 teams playing, and every team does, who do you think is going to be watching, and following, and cheering for each team?

There would not be ticket sales to support 17x more teams,

So football will just disintegrate into a big amorphous mess, as would every other sport in the world,

and women would not be playing at all, in any sport, anywhere, because men would be beating them out of every single category in every single sport.

This is a total non starter.

to move the subject on, as the discussion seems to be at a stalemate at the moment with little progress going on imo. It's tiring!

So the only way to “move the subject on” is to yield to male demands and compromise women’s rights, safety and fairness?

No.

The way to “move the subject on” is for these males and their lunatic supporters to accept No as an answer and get on with making their sports inclusive to gender non-conforming males.

How would this work in Rugby? Would the rules have to be changed so that the great big hulking blokes couldn't tackle the women? Or would a free for all be okay because women on both teams would be equal likely to be maimed, so that makes it fair?

Fuck off

chances of the OP returning to explain what the fuck they're on about?

No.

But when it comes to team sports, surely there could be a new approach that could help solve the issue of including transwomen and where to put them? Otherwise the option is to have them muscle their way into women's sports which is obvs unfair to women, and it's not realistic to have lots of separate teams to cater for different identities.

Ive got a solution for “ transwomen and where to put them “. I know it’s pretty radical but hear me out.

Why don’t we divide sports by sex not gender. So it doesn’t matter what your identity is - gender or religion or ethnicity . You compete according to your sex.

Of course there may be other subdivisions , such as age or weight or catagory of disability.

As everyone has a sex this is the most simple and inclusive solution .

Why would you make this suggestion when you clearly know absolutely nothing about boxing?? Did you think I should google that first, then decide nah I won’t bother?
boxing categories go down to very light. We have fans at work and have watched clips and had bewildered discussions with them about how these men can be the elite athletes they are in the 50-55kg range , a range I sit at the top of . Me boxing with one of these men would be murder, it would be a very unfair match and probably also unsafe for a professional women boxer in that weight range . There is no comparison between men and women athletes at the same weight range in boxing.

But when it comes to team sports, surely there could be a new approach that could help solve the issue of including transwomen and where to put them? Otherwise the option is to have them muscle their way into women's sports which is obvs unfair to women, and it's not realistic to have lots of separate teams to cater for different identities.

Easy. Males on male teams and females on female teams. The way it has always worked.

Any male boxer would knock out a female boxer of the same size in 10 seconds, no matter how fit and trained she was. Male puberty made him stronger and faster than a woman of the same size.

@Baldieheid
horses race against other horses, not humans.

I don't know much about horse racing but in handicapped races the females, mares & fillies, have less weight than the males. I found myself looking up entry requirements for Royal Ascot because I knew it had Ladies day which includes races just for mares & fillies, it's not just about the fashions & hats!

Yes it is abundantly clear you know absolutely nothing about sport @herdingcatss .

How do you imagine this is going to pan out in team sports? There are 11 players in a football team, different positions in football teams - Goalkeeper, defenders, midfield, strikers, all different skills required - how are you going to manage this? Goalkeepers must be x weight and y height? and on and on through the team?

How about cricket, again 11 players - different skills and strengths - batting bowling (and different types of bowling - fast, seam, spin), wicket keeper, fielders.

Or are you just saying any team could be split 50-50 male and female? How's that work in teams of 11? How's that work when transwomen are male?

The current set up split by sex works fine and has for many, many years only come under threat by the aggressive MRA movement that is trans activism, it needs shutting down and the current, workable system imposed across the board.

If TW want to compete, compete in their own sex category or if not have an open/mixed category where possible, or indeed an entirely separate category for TW and TM.

”But it's just an idea as I think we need a new way of looking at sports in society, to move the subject on, as the discussion seems to be at a stalemate at the moment with little progress going on imo. It's tiring!”

”Anyway do you think this is a potential solution to the issue? Or have I missed something major? I don't play sports but if anyone does, I'd love to know what you think of this approach, and whether mixed teams of equal weights would work instead of being based on biology (or gender).”

You find it ‘tiring’, yet you don’t even play sport!

You don’t seem to understand the research, and you don’t seem to even understand the science of sports regarding how the body moves. What the fuck do you think will be achieved with matching male and female ‘weights’ ? Fairness? Fun? What?

Well, you live and learn! I had no idea.

See, OP. Even horses are divided by sex.

Now go study. You've got exams in just a few weeks, I'm sure.

What a stupid idea

But when it comes to team sports, surely there could be a new approach that could help solve the issue of including transwomen and where to put them? Otherwise the option is to have them muscle their way into women's sports which is obvs unfair to women, and it's not realistic to have lots of separate teams to cater for different identities.

Simple Open category open to ALL from burley blokes, blokes in pink tutus and the odd woman who wants a go.
And Female, open only to split arsed, womb owners. No Willie's or balls involved