Suella Braverman thread 2

[AdamRyan]

As we filled up thread one eith our battling over whether it's feminist or racist to support Suella Braverman's weekend statements, I thought another would be good.

Here's some of what she said:

"What's clear is what we've seen is a practice whereby vulnerable white English girls, sometimes who are in care, sometimes in challenging circumstances, being pursued and raped and drugged and harmed by gangs of British Pakistani men who've worked in child abuse rings or networks. We've seen institutions and state agencies, whether it's social workers, teachers, the police turn a blind eye to these signs of abuse out of political correctness, out of fear of being called racist, out of fear of being called bigoted. And as a result, thousands, we are not talking small numbers, we are talking large numbers, thousands of children have had their childhoods robbed and devastated. And there are many of these perpetrators still running wild, behaving in this way. And it's now down to the authorities to track these perpetrators down, without fear or favour, relentlessly and bring them to justice"

Sunak has since rowed back on this and the Home Offices own research suggests there is not enough quality research to say any particular ethnicity is disproportionately involved in "grooming gangs"

dancingbears post is great too, I wish I had a like button

But Adam, I feel that looking the other way on specific ethnic grooming also did happen, and likely was disproportionately represented.

Indeed a large proportion of migrant communities preyed on girls because of society giving them permission, so to speak.

And I repeat again, the evidence from the three instances of Muslim pressure leading to teachers and children having credible death threats, a film being forced into being pulled, almost zero national dialog or push back from the state, fucking Conservative Party unable to even start to conserve, suggests to me that Muslim perpetrators of abuse and grooming likely did get paths of least resistance from layers of authority.

Braverman saying "most" grooming done by Pakistanis/Bangladeshis is factually incorrect, but maybe per capita they were worst offenders.

If she was genuinely on your side in this, surely she'd be distancing us from this theocracy?

I imagine both the Labour Party and Conservative Party have completely failed when it comes to countering the spread of Islamist ideology coming from places like Saudi Arabia.

I guess the problem is I think its a problem of the patriarchy.

A certain kind of man is sexually predatory. We have conditions in this country where its very hard to bring predatory males to justice because for some reason we like to uphold myths thar support them (women like rough sex, regretful sex, women make false allegations). So when women report a rape, the default is to look for reasons why it wasn't rape, rather than assume it was.

We have conditions where certain sectors of society are seen as a scourge, as you said. Teenage girls are drama filled lying attention seekers. Underage working class girls are feral and it's to be expected they are sexually active. So when they are, the system treats it as normal rather than criminal and ignores the men having sex with underage girls.

And then we have an over worked, underfunded social services system which almost incentivises overlooking evidence of crimes because they don't have the resources to investigate/deal properly. In here you have cases like Baby P, Victoria Climbie, Arthur Labinjo-Hughes, as well as the grooming victims.

We could fix all those things and it would have a much more beneficial effect on victims of these crimes, rather than a crack down on a particular type of grooming gang.

Yes let's just leave THAT particular type of grooming gang to flourish because... reasons.

What you are calling 'patriarchy' is simply male patterns of behaviour. Males, as are females, are pre-disposed to certain traits on account of their biology. This is why we have single sex spaces and services and different sporting categories. They recognise the existence of some these differences and offer some protection in the face of them for women and girls.

We could turn that on its head and say, let's just focus our attention on THAT particular type of grooming gang because......reasons

So we accept predatory sexual behaviour from men as innate, except when it's Pakistani/Muslim men and then it's due to cultural differences?

You are never going to be rid of 'the patriarchy' if by that you are expecting that one day there will no general differences between the sexes. The question really is, how do we manage those differences in the most equitable way.

I think that some differences are innate, yes. That doesn't mean that society or culture does not shape those differences according to the distinct conditions of that culture. It also doesn't mean that all men are rapists. It tends to mean that the male sex drive is different to the female sex drive - and there are biological reasons for this.

This is really quite amazing, unless you ve been on Mars, we have had an increasingly right wing Tory Govt in power for the last 13 years, so whatever the PC credentials of New Labour etc etc the Tories have had 13 years to make good any Labour screw ups but they haven't.

Because girls in care and females in general don't matter, be it girls who who are groomed or women escaping domestic violence (Tory cuts = DV refuge's shut down) or women/girls raped.... the Police, the media and Govts don't care, until it does and they see political gain to be had e.g Bravermans latest waffle.

Most rape allegations are "regretful" sex says top Met officer, so of course the Police aren't going to act when they get reports of under age girls sleeping with older men.

Its got zero to do with PC or racism accusations, these are just excuses for inaction.

Most rape allegations are "regretful" sex says top Met officer, so of course the Police aren't going to act

Ignore the police. You still had the media stay silent for years. You had politicians stay silent for years on both sides.

Both the Labour Party and Conservative Party are rubbish on crime.

Why didn't the media talk about this? Just because of their general view of sexual assault accusations? Haven't the media had plenty of campaigning on sexual assault in the past? No one in the media is sympathetic to the issue?

For me, as a typical male, not violent nor overly prejudiced against women, but pretty much immune from female anxieties about society, my journey since 2010, and especially 2016, has been pretty meaningful.

Seeing in stark reality the TRA movement, radical Pro Lifers in US, and growing awareness that police and authorities have demoted male violence against women, the abandonment of girls in care, the de facto decriminalisation of child porn and underage sex, the parallel influence of sex work positive feminists, the absorption of hardcore porn thru society even into school age kids, the shoulders shrugged on abysmal rape convictions etc...means that in the last few years, I'm up to speed on how poorly women and girls are doing. Makes me HUGELY sad.

Now I hear the Tories may not enact the EHRC recommendations, but use them as a bargaining chip at the next election.

Another massive kick in the teeth for women and girls everywhere.

Sorry but you simply cannot ignore the Police, they up hold the law, together with the CPS, Courts etc, they are fundamental, the foundation if you like.

The media, in the main, have been quiet because it embarrasses the Govt of the day and we have a right wing media supporting a right wing Govt, where was the criticism when 20k Police cut? stations shut down, sure start centres closed, DV refuge's closed? even now 50% of women calling a DV help line will be turned away.

Yes i agree Govt's are shite on crime because crime prevention costs money and great deal of it, its hard to justify to an electorate xx billions to be spent on crime/justice system/social care when NHS waiting lists are 3m (pre CV) and 8m now.

Why didn't the media talk about this? Just because of their general view of sexual assault accusations? Haven't the media had plenty of campaigning on sexual assault in the past? No one in the media is sympathetic to the issue?

Bluntly? i think many in society see these girls as "asking for it". Not as vulnerable teenagers, with chaotic and disturbed lives, who need protection.

Look at Grenfell? do you think that if Grenfell had been a Private School, the cladding issues would still not be resolved? or would they have all been fixed at tax payer expense within 12 months?

Some people in society don't matter.

The Home Secretaries obviously.

When the Conservatives use victims for political gain is it also revolting?

See eg Suella Braverman this week.

So saying you are going to DO something about this is using victims for political gain? Really?

There is the start of a solution though.
Return funding for all manner of vital services to the levels it was in 2010.

My MP seems deeply upset that the Saudi's would not pay him to represent them in parliament. needless to say that #dklemon is a Tory.

Starmer already acknowledged no new money for policing or criminal justice.

You think a simple matter of funding is going to radically alter the differences between the sexes, and the differences between cultural expectations around those differences?

Here is a good example of the attitude you describe.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/election-boris-johnson-articles-women-women-journalist-spectator-labour-a9221036.html

But at least he apparantly knows what a woman is.

I live in a Labour run city. It has always been a Labour run city. That hasn't stopped the issue of male exploitation of women and girls in that city.

Your point is well made.