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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

escalating violence

111 replies

dropthevipers · 01/04/2023 22:10

Just that. Does anyone else think the increasingly violent scenes (such as recently witnessed in NZ) shows that the Koolaid gang realise the gig is up and are lashing out in fury and frustration?

OP posts:
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7
OneMorePlant · 02/04/2023 04:32

I'm honestly getting tired of the same TRA all over this forum entering a thread with wild accusations and claims that they never can back up. All you are doing is proving us right. You have no arguments, facts are not on your side and you are completely disrespectful, misogynistic and intolerant.

Receipts or gtfo.

BlueHeelers · 02/04/2023 05:10

MerlinsLostMarbles · 01/04/2023 22:27

IMO I think Australia and NZ are more supportive of LGBT rights than the UK is. When an anti-trans event is planned, there will be greater resistance in Aus/NZ than there would be in the UK.

The NZ media and PM have spoken in support of the protestors and against KJK.

In my experience of actually living in Australia (not just random opinion) it’s a very macho anti- woman culture. There’s a reason that some remarkable feminists are from Australia.

MrsJamin · 02/04/2023 05:41

It's escalating violence because they are being confronted with adults calmly saying the truth, that TWAM - having a temper tantrum is all they have - they have no reasoned arguments, only feelings. Just a bunch of big toddlers with blue hair.

Waitwhat23 · 02/04/2023 06:13

It's sheer desperation. No-one is playing the game anymore. No debate no longer works, no platforming no longer works so they're reduced to increasing violence to shut women up. This period in history is going to be studied in the future as an example of safeguarding being thrown out the window to allow narcissism free reign.

forgotmyusername1 · 02/04/2023 06:48

I think it's interesting that even the lgb community is now going 'err, we don't want to be associated with this shit #lbgwithoutT

PorcelinaV · 02/04/2023 06:55

MerlinsLostMarbles · 01/04/2023 23:32

The "political lady" you refer to is Aboriginal woman Lidia Thorpe. If the protest also includes women then what does that suggest to you?

Do you want all women to speak? Or only the ones who agree with you?

Lidia Thorpe didn't want the event to happen in the first place. She was on the side of censorship.

But quite possibly she would have been allowed to speak at the event had she wanted to. She didn't want to. She wanted to try to disrupt it instead.

You don't have a right to disrupt someone else's event. You also don't have a right to speak at someone else's event. That comes down to the decision of the event organisers. KJK can't just turn up and speak at trans activist events, so even if she did limit who could speak at her own event, it wouldn't be a big deal.

What does Lidia Thorpe talk about that gets suppressed anyway? Is anyone stopping her from speaking out on certain issues?

If you think that there should be an event where both sides on the trans-activism issue get to debate each other, I think that's a great idea, but I'm pretty sure the trans-activists often wouldn't want that. They are too cowardly or intellectually dishonest to want open debate.

PorcelinaV · 02/04/2023 07:14

RufustheSpeculatingreindeer · 01/04/2023 23:19

On other threads merlin has included that political lady who ended up crawling after being taken out by the police as an example of KJKs supporters violence and someone being knocked down by a motorcycle

as far as i can see KJKs supporters were just trying to get away from that mob…ideally in one peace

Obviously Lidia Thorpe wasn't really attacked. Security and police were just doing their job.

The rhetoric is "punch TERFs". There is no equivalent rhetoric of "punch trans-activists" on the GC side.

We know which side talks about using violence. We know which side is "no debate". And we know which side is crossing the line to actually attack people.

Happylittlechicken · 02/04/2023 07:14

Doesn’t NZ have the 3rd largest rate of DV in the world? And that includes countries like Afghanistan and Iran where women have hardly any rights? No wonder these males thought it was ok to beat up women, it seems to be the whole country’s attitude to women

PriOn1 · 02/04/2023 07:35

Back to the original question:

I don’t think it’s because they “realise the gig is up”, unfortunately. I think it’s about group dynamics. There are different dynamics in different parts of the world.

I think the UK situation is still mostly at the level of student politics. Student politics is not known for its restraint. Campaigning students have plenty of time, opportunity and enthusiasm for loud objections. They are also often easily influenced.

The huge majority in the UK are of the student protester type. They are excited by thinking they are doing good. As we saw in the Laughing Auditor’s video, what is mostly occurring, is still not actively violent. Blocking someone’s path, shouting loudly to drown out the opposition, name-calling. These are all antisocial behaviours, but still well within the realms of what students might see as being reasonable, non-violent protest. They can still tell themselves they’re on a righteous path.

Consider children (especially teenagers) who push boundaries, more or less for the sake of it. What happens when they receive no push back or where there are no clear boundaries set? They crave attention and so they escalate. I think that plays a large part in what we are seeing here. Easily led young people, attracted to the idea of righting societal wrongs, attracted to confrontation, feeling excitation at fighting back, particularly against older women who (like their mothers) are trying to stop them having fun.

There are others amongst them, however, who are very different, for whom violence is normal. Those students, with their unquestioning adulation, are the perfect front. The police (who are never sent in sufficient numbers to actually deal with any law breaking) are especially tolerant. As someone said in another thread, those students are the offspring of members of the class who hold the power. The “protest” is still on the edge of legality. Small boundaries are being pushed. The students who enjoy confrontation will feel excited by this minor law breaking, and with the fact that they are getting away with it.

Then another boundary is pushed. A minor assault, committed right in front of the police. Because they are already allowing the law to be broken, because they are there in insufficient numbers, this escalation is also allowed to pass. The students see this tolerance and thus this escalation is normalised in their heads as well. Those abusive men have used the escalation tactic before. They know how it works and how long it can take before the naive will realize they are being used. Suddenly they have the power they have always craved.

In addition, young men who enjoy violence for its own sake can see this dynamic and its attractions. In some protests they have begun to turn up in their black clothes and masks. They were not present in the Laughing Auditor’s video, but they too see the dynamic that is developing and will use it.

The escalation is related to these various group dynamics and the wholesale lack of any kind of restraint or reaction from those who should be keeping the peace, but who have decided to achieve that by tolerating minor infractions. Rather than nipping this in the bud, the police are choosing to ignore and (presumably) hoping it will all go away. There are probably many among them who see it is only women who are being intimidated and think that the women could easily avoid putting the police in this position by shutting up.

I think the end of “no debate” has changed the dynamic. Women meeting has provided an opportunity for bullying in the form of student-style protest along with the unsavory undercurrent. The women are not shutting up, ergo those who enjoy abuse and violence and will use any excuse, see an opportunity. Crowd dynamics, the tendency to follow others, are all being put to use.

In NZ I think we saw misogyny, which had been pushed underground, find an outlet. There is also financial and social instability pervading the western world at present. The anger and fear people are feeling is being given an outlet as well. And there are those who simply enjoy conflict and are reveling in the opportunities the current, febrile atmosphere presents.

I think it is impossible to see the situation in NZ as one where those demonstrating barely suppressed anger, (mostly) sub-violent behaviour and intimidation as being one where the perpetrators think they are losing. I don’t think they have any doubt at the moment that they are winning.

But I think it is obvious from the Laughing Auditor’s video that, even in the Uk, those involved do not see themselves as losing control of the situation and becoming desperate. They are still indulging in what they see as righteous anger and are still being supported by the powers that be. As they escalate, the optics are increasingly bad and it will reach a point where their behaviour is no longer tolerated. I suspect many rational people are already dropping out. But I’m not seeing fury and frustration. Only cold manipulation from a minority, married to gleeful engagement in antisocial behaviour from rebellious youths.

I think we will reach the stage where there is fury and frustration. I just don’t think we’re there yet.

FloorToo · 02/04/2023 07:47

https://twitter.com/YPinfo101/status/1642210244322377729

The push at the UN by many countries means this is going to get worse. I note that the UK isn't listed.

https://twitter.com/YPinfo101/status/1642210244322377729

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 02/04/2023 07:52

PriOn1 · 02/04/2023 07:35

Back to the original question:

I don’t think it’s because they “realise the gig is up”, unfortunately. I think it’s about group dynamics. There are different dynamics in different parts of the world.

I think the UK situation is still mostly at the level of student politics. Student politics is not known for its restraint. Campaigning students have plenty of time, opportunity and enthusiasm for loud objections. They are also often easily influenced.

The huge majority in the UK are of the student protester type. They are excited by thinking they are doing good. As we saw in the Laughing Auditor’s video, what is mostly occurring, is still not actively violent. Blocking someone’s path, shouting loudly to drown out the opposition, name-calling. These are all antisocial behaviours, but still well within the realms of what students might see as being reasonable, non-violent protest. They can still tell themselves they’re on a righteous path.

Consider children (especially teenagers) who push boundaries, more or less for the sake of it. What happens when they receive no push back or where there are no clear boundaries set? They crave attention and so they escalate. I think that plays a large part in what we are seeing here. Easily led young people, attracted to the idea of righting societal wrongs, attracted to confrontation, feeling excitation at fighting back, particularly against older women who (like their mothers) are trying to stop them having fun.

There are others amongst them, however, who are very different, for whom violence is normal. Those students, with their unquestioning adulation, are the perfect front. The police (who are never sent in sufficient numbers to actually deal with any law breaking) are especially tolerant. As someone said in another thread, those students are the offspring of members of the class who hold the power. The “protest” is still on the edge of legality. Small boundaries are being pushed. The students who enjoy confrontation will feel excited by this minor law breaking, and with the fact that they are getting away with it.

Then another boundary is pushed. A minor assault, committed right in front of the police. Because they are already allowing the law to be broken, because they are there in insufficient numbers, this escalation is also allowed to pass. The students see this tolerance and thus this escalation is normalised in their heads as well. Those abusive men have used the escalation tactic before. They know how it works and how long it can take before the naive will realize they are being used. Suddenly they have the power they have always craved.

In addition, young men who enjoy violence for its own sake can see this dynamic and its attractions. In some protests they have begun to turn up in their black clothes and masks. They were not present in the Laughing Auditor’s video, but they too see the dynamic that is developing and will use it.

The escalation is related to these various group dynamics and the wholesale lack of any kind of restraint or reaction from those who should be keeping the peace, but who have decided to achieve that by tolerating minor infractions. Rather than nipping this in the bud, the police are choosing to ignore and (presumably) hoping it will all go away. There are probably many among them who see it is only women who are being intimidated and think that the women could easily avoid putting the police in this position by shutting up.

I think the end of “no debate” has changed the dynamic. Women meeting has provided an opportunity for bullying in the form of student-style protest along with the unsavory undercurrent. The women are not shutting up, ergo those who enjoy abuse and violence and will use any excuse, see an opportunity. Crowd dynamics, the tendency to follow others, are all being put to use.

In NZ I think we saw misogyny, which had been pushed underground, find an outlet. There is also financial and social instability pervading the western world at present. The anger and fear people are feeling is being given an outlet as well. And there are those who simply enjoy conflict and are reveling in the opportunities the current, febrile atmosphere presents.

I think it is impossible to see the situation in NZ as one where those demonstrating barely suppressed anger, (mostly) sub-violent behaviour and intimidation as being one where the perpetrators think they are losing. I don’t think they have any doubt at the moment that they are winning.

But I think it is obvious from the Laughing Auditor’s video that, even in the Uk, those involved do not see themselves as losing control of the situation and becoming desperate. They are still indulging in what they see as righteous anger and are still being supported by the powers that be. As they escalate, the optics are increasingly bad and it will reach a point where their behaviour is no longer tolerated. I suspect many rational people are already dropping out. But I’m not seeing fury and frustration. Only cold manipulation from a minority, married to gleeful engagement in antisocial behaviour from rebellious youths.

I think we will reach the stage where there is fury and frustration. I just don’t think we’re there yet.

Yes! This is absolutely what I am seeing but you have spelled it out a lot better than I could have.

FloorToo · 02/04/2023 08:09

https://mobile.twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1642267617380519938?cxt=HHwWhMC-gc3swMotAAAA

Middle class culture, this is what group think, limited application of critical thinking skills and a gigantic ego are playing, this particular group have abandoned a moral compass and live with a world view dictated by their HR department DIE, diversity, inclusion, equality and be kind, only for certain people though.

  1. disregard for the opinions of others
  2. hypocrisy
  3. self interest
  4. authoritarian tenancy

https://twitter.com/andrewlawrence/status/1641737107252076551?cxt=HHwWjoCzxezMz8gtAAAA

https://mobile.twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1642267617380519938?cxt=HHwWhMC-gc3swMotAAAA

RufustheSpeculatingreindeer · 02/04/2023 08:23

MerlinsLostMarbles · 01/04/2023 23:32

The "political lady" you refer to is Aboriginal woman Lidia Thorpe. If the protest also includes women then what does that suggest to you?

Do you want all women to speak? Or only the ones who agree with you?

Thank you for the correct name there, I couldn’t remember it for the life of me.

Women can be wrong about things…

i believe in ‘let women talk’ 🤷🏻

RufustheSpeculatingreindeer · 02/04/2023 08:28

And obviously i was right merlin

those two examples of ‘violence’, by kjk’s supporters specifically, are the only two examples you have

Or you’d produce evidence

SinnerBoy · 02/04/2023 08:39

Do you mean fury from GC women? I think that that is probably what it's going to take, tell the Lammys to bloody well shut up for a minute and listen to some facts.

SinnerBoy · 02/04/2023 08:43

Merlin

I'm not condoning any of the individual acts of violence (there were incidents on both sides just to add).

I've seen this claim from several posters now, but none have answered my (and other people's) requests for evidence.

I don't think that anyone can seriously compare Lidia Thorp being bundled away, entirely unharmed, with diminutive old ladies being bashed.

Also, it seems somewhat underhand to compare the event in NZ with the one in Australia, as if they were one.

Naunet · 02/04/2023 08:55

MerlinsLostMarbles · 01/04/2023 22:27

IMO I think Australia and NZ are more supportive of LGBT rights than the UK is. When an anti-trans event is planned, there will be greater resistance in Aus/NZ than there would be in the UK.

The NZ media and PM have spoken in support of the protestors and against KJK.

Clearly not, you mean they’re more pro trans, but seeing as trans ideology erases homosexuality, you must mean Australians and kiwis are homophobic? Can’t have it both ways.

MarshaBradyo · 02/04/2023 08:58

Boiledbeetle · 01/04/2023 22:34

It wasn't an anti trans anything. It was a bloody let women speak event.

Violence. Not resistance. Violence!

There is a difference. Those people in NZ acted as a baying mob of thugs.

They terrorised those women.
They assaulted those women.
They punched those women.
They broke a women's skull.

That's not fucking resistance.

That's violent terrorism

Yes there has been a few words like this eg resistance on here

Not just stating what happened, that is unprovoked violence against women

MarshaBradyo · 02/04/2023 09:03

Women are saying no and men are using a typical male response which is violence

Anyone that excuses it by downplaying it or doing the they asked for it line which has cropped up isn’t on the side of peaceful women

sashagabadon · 02/04/2023 09:10

I have two theories about why NZ escalated and was much much more violent than we see here in U.K. ( although there has been violence here too but less) and that is
a. U.K. media is many times more balanced than in NZ. So we get to hear the problems with trans ideology and self ID etc and we know it is not clear cut. “No debate” has also been over here for about 3 years or so. And likely UK police are aware of this too. NZ is still “no debate” and behind us in the discussion.
b. NZ is just a much much smaller population ( although the country itself is bigger than the U.K.) and so KJK coming became a much bigger deal than it would be here or say in the US where there are multiple events happening on any given day. It seemed like the whole focus on the country was KJK’s visit and that blew it up.
ironically if they had just allowed the event to go ahead it would not have made any international headlines and the world would not be debating what a misogynistic country NZ is.

RufustheSpeculatingreindeer · 02/04/2023 09:11

I don’t know how people can see videos of that NZ mob or the video of the guy in a placard being attacked and say that it was both sides or he started it

and honestly I’m sat here quite satisfied that I’m an OK person, because if i saw that the other way round with someone walking round in a placard saying something I didnt like or someone talking on a bandstand and saying things i don’t agree with I wouldn’t join a gang to attack them or a mob!

Abhannmor · 02/04/2023 09:12

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