Drag Shows, Panto & Hard Line Stances

[SpicyMoth]

I've seen a lot of media reporting essentially insinuating that there was a lot of anti-trans rhetoric leading up to the shooting, specifically referencing legislation against "child friendly" drag shows that very much are not child friendly.

And I can't help but wonder what the hell happened to Pantomime?
I know it's a very British thing so might not translate to the States particularly well, but this seems like such an easy compromise to me and genuinely child friendly?

Do you think compromise on things like this are even possible?

Is there a way for us to be heard without being so blunt, calling all TW men or AGP's as a blanket statement for example? It just seems so harsh.
I love Posie to bits because she's actually managing to get opposing views heard, but I'd be lying if I said there haven't been times were I thought she could've said something with a bit more tact.
I respect why being blunt, and honest and truthful, is very much needed - but sometimes I just can't help but be reminded of the saying "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."

Oh no he isn't!

Etc.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Things can be good from one perspective and bad from another. Society and culture are multi-layered, self-referential, feedback-looped things.

So, the drag queen and her sillier sister the panto dame are disruptive characters because they cross the social gender boundaries. Drag in particular grows out of gay subculture at a time when being gay was illegal and underground, when gay men in the public consciousness were effeminate, not quite real men. So drag makes sense as a kind of Fuck You back to straight society, to willingly embrace female dress and feminine social constructions, to stand up and sing songs of love, yearning and lust for a man.

But in the wider context, appropriating straight society's constructs of womanhood and applying them to a gay man doesn't actually disrupt or challenge the construction itself. In taking on a female costume/personae, the drag queen is taking the cultural idea of "womanhood" at face value just as much as straight society does.

So drag, while subversive and disruptive in terms of masculinity and male sexuality, is still happening within a sexist system and still using the sexist constructs of that system. It's still men feeling entitled to take womanhood as a raw material for their own purpose, a bunch of men using women and womanhood as a tool to make a point to another group of men.

I am in my 60s and I recall that in the 1960s/70s Christmas pantomime in the provinicial theatre (as opposed to on television, or in London with big stars) was - just like drag at the same time - pure filth. The adults roared with laughter at meanings the kids didn't/were supposed not to get (and whose quid-pro-quo was the visuals and specifically kids-directed elements). Of course they did often get some or all of the blue jokes, and if that was evident were chastised by their parents for being so forward. But the parents were there, and it was their decision to take the kids.

I just logged on to a local authority Facebook page I manage and some attention seeking April Fools bollocks from Drag Queen Story Time was "suggested for me".

So why the hell are Facebook algorithms pushing that shit?

Amen.

Just had to agree that Tim Curry was sensational in Rocky Horror!

Didn’t Laverne Cox play Frank N Furter relatively recently?

Tim Curry was a brilliant Frank.

Paul O'Grady, afaik, did not push 'born in the wrong body' into his act. He was also a big supporter of Battersea Dogs Home, which is a very popular charity. So no-one is going to hate him because he has done nothing to call this up. DQSH, on the other hand, sounds as if it is promoting gender ideology, 'born in the wrong body' ideas and some sexual activities that are entirely inappropriate for children.

No drag allowed. And that’s not blatant bigotry? Okay then.

?

Drag isn’t a protected characteristic!

No one is born in a foot tall wig 🤣🤣🤣

They are degrading and an insult to women
Opinion, not fact.

Obviously.

Yes but it becomes problem

Why does opinion become a problem?

who decides which opinions are problematic?

All these people defending drag and pinto dams, would you also defend black and hire minstrel shows? If not, why not? Why is blackface offensive but womanface is not?

FFS, stupid phone 🤬😁
Becomes a problem when people who don't like it try to enforce their likes and dislikes on others by saying needs banning.

I don’t like the idea of banning myself, but I would like a cultural shift where it is recognised to be degrading to women and to fall out of favour.

I've never been a fan of panto.

So if a comedian was mocking people with delayed mental development by copying some of their movements ams speech patterns would they be acceptable to you? If a comedian was sitting in a wheelchair aping someone with cerebral palsy would That be ok to you? If the black and white minstrel show came back would you support that? Why are women the only oppressed group allowed to be mocked and degraded for “entertainment” @CremeEggQueen ?

Because I dont see it as woman face.
I think that's a ridiculous term personally.
I see panto dames and drag as performance, panto dames are acting, drag acts dont see anything wrong with people expressing their selves via clothes and make up.
You'd think anyone who is "GC" would be fine with drag - I mean, it's not like they usually go around saying they are literally a woman, which people usually have a problem with.
They are usually Male, and say they are, they just have a persona.
Kind of like it's the fact that they step outside the boundaries of what a man "should" look like, wear and behave that people have a problem with.
Or maybe so insecure in your own womanhood that you feel you're being made fun of?
Who knows.

No, none of that would be OK, and I've explained in my previous post where I probably cross posted hy I dont see drag and panto dames as the same as mocking disabilities or black people which is definitely offensive.

Ricky Gervais joking about "mongs" Andy in Little Britain in "his" wheelchair.

So you’re saying you would be ok with comedians wearing blackface? Because it’s only acting right? They’re not actually claiming to be black? It seems very racist to me but if you’re ok with it, you do you. I mean, drag acts reduce women to exaggerated sexist stereotypes and the minstrels reduced black people to exaggerated racist stereotypes so one would assume if you’re fine with one you’re fine with the other? Or have you told black people they were wrong to complain about the minstrels as “they were only complaining because they were insecure of their race”.

Why is that offensive but mocking women is ok? What is the difference?

So you’re saying you would be ok with comedians wearing blackface? Because it’s only acting right? They’re not actually claiming to be black?
Think you must have cross posted there as I just explained in my last comments why I see blackface and mocking disabilities as offensive but not drag or panto dames.