Drag Shows, Panto & Hard Line Stances

[SpicyMoth]

I've seen a lot of media reporting essentially insinuating that there was a lot of anti-trans rhetoric leading up to the shooting, specifically referencing legislation against "child friendly" drag shows that very much are not child friendly.

And I can't help but wonder what the hell happened to Pantomime?
I know it's a very British thing so might not translate to the States particularly well, but this seems like such an easy compromise to me and genuinely child friendly?

Do you think compromise on things like this are even possible?

Is there a way for us to be heard without being so blunt, calling all TW men or AGP's as a blanket statement for example? It just seems so harsh.
I love Posie to bits because she's actually managing to get opposing views heard, but I'd be lying if I said there haven't been times were I thought she could've said something with a bit more tact.
I respect why being blunt, and honest and truthful, is very much needed - but sometimes I just can't help but be reminded of the saying "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."

Womanface is all one word, like blackface. And it's all problematic, like blackface.

Because it is designed to dehumanise a category of people (women), and lead its audience to feel comfortable and familiar with discriminatory views of, and actions towards, its subjects. Like blackface..

I wonder, now there seem to be so many high profile dqs, if they'll start taking the dames role in pantos (assuming they haven't already). If they do/have, I think the comment about dames not twerking might have a shelf life.

I really don’t want to see Christopher Biggin’’s bare arsecheeks.

Don’t think he could manage a handstand on a chair!

Aah, mind bleach!

🤣

It's not some children. It's most children.
I'm very long in the tooth and have worked with children my whole working life. It's a generalisation that holds true.

Personally I believe it shows their instincts are working. Humans, great apes, do well for their young to recognise disguise and deception and be wary of adult males.

Apologies I wasn't trying to suggest that anything was being done wrong, genuinely didn't mean for it to come across that way.
I was more genuinely just asking, are we past it? Like, is there no middle ground at all possible anymore?
It's sad to me that we have to get so hard line to be heard was more the musings I was trying to get across.

Also re; panto. The main reason I brought it up is because I have such fond memories of my nan taking me to see Aladdin for example, and no one ever seemed to bat an eye an Widow Twankey.
I also wasn't suggesting Panto = real women. I was suggesting Panto = infinitely more child friendly than mostly naked men with fake boobs that have 4 cm long nipples and twerking >.<

Thank you for your thoughtful response, I'd not looked into it much in depth - was more so going off of memories of my nan taking me to things like Aladdin when I was a child.

My suggestion wasn't so much that "kids love it", but more that surely that's a better alternative than literal half naked men twerking, stripping, pole dancing, getting kids to put money in their thongs etc if that makes sense?
And more wondering out loud why, if there's such a push for child friendly events of that nature from that side of the isle, why Panto gets skipped over in favour of the most inappropriate thing possible?

I don't have much to add other than thank you for writing so eloquently, I feel like you've summarised exactly how I feel about the entire situation far better than I ever could - It just makes me so sad that this is seemingly what we have to resort to?

I've never really had that "hard line stance" mindset in me, parents evening's back in school I was always told I'm a mediator for people to my own detriment. So I'm finding the black and white-ness very hard to come to terms with, especially when everyone in my age group that I know seems to be die hard for trans ideology.

I think people should be able to live how they want when they're old enough to make those decisions, and as long as it doesn't infringe on other's rights. That shouldn't be so controversial :/

@SpicyMoth I understand what you are saying.

It is a shame one/I can’t be tactful or tell comforting lies any more when people are in distress. It’s like the whole thing about surrogacy means I have had to spell out my private thoughts and I know my words are going to be really painful for people who are having trouble conceiving.

We can’t be so indirect and polite any more.

There are some, I would say, ‘evil’ people who have connived to undermine our democracy, families, health, safety, freedom, culture - everything with their lies and propaganda. The gullies and channels it spreads though are our kind lies and pretence, our good manners and dislike of confrontation, our caring self-suppression. It is so poisonous though, we could lose it all so we need to stem every course now. We’ve no choice.

The ship of politeness has truly sailed.

I agree with you though! That's sort of what I'm trying to get at - I'm gathering from the responses that I clearly haven't worded what I was trying to say very well.

To clarify, I'm very much on the KJK side of things and will be voting for her and helping in any way I can - I was more just genuinely asking if the whole thing is too far gone?

Like, as an aside - What happens at the end, when we're finally heard and our rights are properly protected?
Like other's have said, there was campaigning for a third space for trans people, will that be brought up again?
Or is it a scenario where people are just washing their hands of it all together, and every group must fend for themselves and their own needs?
Are the days of "allies" gone essentially?

Wtf?

That post was factual.

I didn’t see it. What was it about @CryptoFascistMadameCholet ?

Queer Theory.

I’ve asked mumsnet to send me a copy with advice on how to edit it to meet their approval.

I expect the weekend mods are on shift already.

I literally just finished reading, favourited it, went to reply and it was gone - I didn't see anything wrong with your post??
I went through the rules on what is and isn't okay to say literally yesterday? Very confused!

No one was misgendered, no names were mentioned and every event I listed really occurred.

Yes, I agree (again). And I'd add that children can also instinctively recognise, and be very uncomfortable with, sexual deviance and deliberately transgressive behaviour when they see it, too.

And I'd very much like to read the contents of @CryptoFascistMadameCholet's deleted post, thanks @MN.

@SpicyMoth
" Apologies I wasn't trying to suggest that anything was being done wrong, genuinely didn't mean for it to come across that way.

I was more genuinely just asking, are we past it? Like, is there no middle ground at all possible anymore?
It's sad to me that we have to get so hard line to be heard was more the musings I was trying to get across. "

We've heard feminists telling women to sit patiently and quietly, while they work behind the scenes, presumably on a softly, softly basis.
Do you think they've succeeded? Might another letter to the guardian work, do you think?
I don't think so, plenty of women have a go at KJK but their own contribution to the fight, is a bit light in the kitty. The labour womens declaration group, still can't put a stall up at conference, so being nice, just isn't getting us anywhere, it just allows more woman haters to enter the arena.

As for panto, I fairly much agree with you. Going to the panto was a thing my friends and i looked forward to as kids - all the men paid into a saving scheme out of their wages every year that paid for panto tickets and maybe a christmas party too.
The dames, ime, were often there to be booed, like the ugly step sisters in Cinderella.
I wouldn't think it appropriate to take a kid now though, especially if they had any of the ilk that performed at babacaba appearing.

I think I would have agreed with your thoughts op before I took my kids to the Christmas panto few weeks ago. I thought they were completely harmless before but I was not happy with the jokes. Adult jokes that kids would probably miss but lot's about sex. The panto same was flirting and stupid and sexually led. Such a very sexist representation. Completely fooled by the very obvious bad guy in disguise because he flirted with her and she got all weak at the needs. Nothing exactly terrible in it but it bothered me. I don't remember them being like that as a child but maybe I was too young to get the jokes/sexism. I agree with those saying it's not extreme to want them gone.

We need to completely separate sex and gender.

The genie in the panto I saw was so feminine and glittery and skipped around happily. Not sexualised that I could see. He could have easily been in a dress and as long as he's called a he that's fine to me.

I think I would have agreed with your thoughts op before I took my kids to the Christmas panto few weeks ago
It's April in an hour or so, not sure what pantos were still on a few weeks ago?
As for jokes I think it's great it appeals to all audiences - just like I used to love Grease as a kid, all the innuendo went over my head but loads of us enjoyed it as a film

Well how many is a few? My bad should have said a dozen weeks

Panto season is November to mid February.

Gandalf is touring right now with his panto. But that's probably a special case.