Drag Shows, Panto & Hard Line Stances

[SpicyMoth]

I've seen a lot of media reporting essentially insinuating that there was a lot of anti-trans rhetoric leading up to the shooting, specifically referencing legislation against "child friendly" drag shows that very much are not child friendly.

And I can't help but wonder what the hell happened to Pantomime?
I know it's a very British thing so might not translate to the States particularly well, but this seems like such an easy compromise to me and genuinely child friendly?

Do you think compromise on things like this are even possible?

Is there a way for us to be heard without being so blunt, calling all TW men or AGP's as a blanket statement for example? It just seems so harsh.
I love Posie to bits because she's actually managing to get opposing views heard, but I'd be lying if I said there haven't been times were I thought she could've said something with a bit more tact.
I respect why being blunt, and honest and truthful, is very much needed - but sometimes I just can't help but be reminded of the saying "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."

You…..bloody hell

What a cracking post.

Americans have never had the same kind of cross-dressing humour that British (or Canadian) comedy has.

I've always thought it had a lot of its roots in ageism. It makes older woman (Edna, Hinge & Bracket) something to laugh at.

I hate panto anyway, i hate modern drag, I've never been inclined to watch Drag Race so I've no opinion on it. TBH drag isn't something that has ever really featured in my life, and i simply don't understand it at all.

I saw Les Dawson years ago in panto playing the dame. There was line where they joked about him getting into bed with the principal boy. He stepped out of character went to the edge of the stage, broke the fourth wall and spoke about him actually being a man and the other character a woman. Instead of double entendre it was suddenly overtly sexual, it was weird and very troubling.

It seems unusual for the principal boy to be played by a woman nowadays except in amateur theatre. But panto seems to be very well paid, I'm sure that's entirely unconnected.

Yes, Paul o'Grady was playing Miss Hannigan. I'm sure he was excellent in the role. Imagine the furore if a non trans person were to take the role of a trans character though.

I though Tim Curry was brilliant in the Rocky Horror show because he was so masculine and generally brilliant. I don't know how it'd be cast now. I saw a version on TV with a famous tw in the role. The speaking, singing, acting were fine but it just, for me, didn't work.

Yes, let’s all try the sweet smile and the calm reasoning , shall we?

I think Gigglebiz was funny, but sometimes I found some really horrible misogyny.

I remember this particular scene where a ballerina was looking dainty and self absorbed and something really horrible happened to her like she was pushed over or got mud splattered over her, something like that, then she looks really upset and starts crying- wailing (an adult woman acting as a girl), and that was supposed to be funny. Justin being a c’’t to a girl because she was looking a bit prissy and in her own world. I was startled to see kids being desensitised to MVAWG - even encouraged to participate - on bloody CBeebies.

I read a David Aaronovitch column saying drag-queen story-time, nothing to see here and naming a DQ he had no problem with having access to children. I looked the DQ in question up on Twitter and they were posting about wanting to scratch their ballsack on a train and bum honey. Photos of drag queens in sexualise outfits stroking body parts.

David, they’re telling you who they are. Fine, perhaps, as adult entertainment. Not for children.

It seems unusual for the principal boy to be played by a woman nowadays except in amateur theatre.

I wonder why that stopped? It seems an important part of the tradition - part of the comedy of panto is knowing that the principal boy is really a woman. And it's actually one of the very rare examples in theatre of female-to-male cross-dressing.

There is clearly a difference between actors playing opposite-sex roles in the theatre and drag. Numerous women have played Hamlet, for example, and there was an all-male production of Twelfth Night not so long ago. But the comedic element - the exaggeration of perceived feminine or female features and arguably the mockery of those features - is core to drag.

Panto dames and "family friendly" drag have almost nothing in common.
The motives are very different. Panto is not political, was a seasonal event connected to a holiday, had no motive to influence children's development. Sexualised drag used to be for adults, now it's being used through LGB forced teaming to try to influence children AND the attitudes of adults responsible for kids to push at the boundaries of sex between adults and children.
If not to push at the age boundaries in sex why would a rainbow monkey reading stories to kids in a library need a big plastic cock on display?
Drag events use the pretense "story" or "family friendly" to justify children being there, but the whole point is to get access to the kids and groom both the kids and the parents by undermining their boundaries. Sexualised drag for adults has been around forever with wide and uncontorvertial acceptance. There is only social friction now because one side is trying to bring children in.
The LGB are being forced teamed into this process because it's a great way of deflecting from the issues around child safeguarding and age sex boundaries, just call someone homophobic if they object. From what I've seen a significant portion of the LGB community acknowledges this and want nothing to do with this attack on age boundaries e.g. gays against groomers, queen's speech.
Its the same forced teaming as the Pedophile Information Exchange network trying to glom onto gay rights in the 70s.

Paul O Grady never twerked in from of a minor.

Joan Collins Fan Club broadcast well after the watershed.

Neither denigrated women, or referred to us as ‘fish’.

Drag is an adult themed entertainment for adults, if it’s kept to adult venues, or broadcast with an adult rating lots of people would’ve carried on ignoring it.
Instead it got brought out of the nightclubs and shoved into the sunlight without any thought to appropriateness or creating an edited version. You can buy RuPaul themed drag queen dollies for preschoolers in Walmart 🤦‍♀️

I love John Waters and Divine and I am happy for my children to watch the John Waters films that have been given family friendly certificates - Divine in Hairspray = fine. Divine in Female Trouble = fuck no!

Panto probably has a different root (the equivalent of etymology but for performance not words) but I agree with above, most kids don’t actually like panto dames and they were probably always meant to be controversial/not socially acceptable/Lords of Misrule anyway. Kids aren’t told the panto dame is someone lovely who should be celebrated with rainbows and glitter.

I’m a supporter of free speech and don’t believe in outright banning things that aren’t criminal. People have a right to be offensive and people have a right to be offended.

What people do not have a right to do is introduce adult themes to minors. If films have an age rating then live performance needs one too.

I can’t remember who it was who described drag queens as ‘sex clowns’ but it stuck in my head as very apt - kids don’t really like clowns either and everyone recognised that clowns are sinister, even if they don’t admit it. It’s why Pennywise from Stephen King’s IT is such an iconic character and what makes John Wayne Gacy stand out in a glut of middle age white man serial killers.

I took this screen shot from twitter yesterday, it’s from an Australian TV show, apparently.

the girls are smiling, but the crossed arms and the leaning away screams ‘I’m uncomfortable’ to me.

At least with panto the characters are all on a stage, there is a distance between the audience and the performers, the kids are safely beside their parents and the characters interact with each other far more than with the audience.

Plus, lots of the characters express similar discomfort with the dames to that the kids are themselves feeling - eg Cinderella’s Stepsisters are the villains, the kids in the audience aren’t being forced to squash down their fears of the dame, the dames are truly scary and no one is denying it.

Yes.

Plus the principle boy is the good guy, the panto dame is usually a villain (or a useful sidekick to a villain).

The sex-swap aspect reveals a truth to the children, that you can change your hair, your name, your clothes, and it’s still the bigger, stronger, male human that is a bigger risk to your safety.

Drag Queen Story Hour gaslights the kids out of trusting their own instincts (‘this person scares me but my mum wants me to like them and have my picture taken next to them’) whereas panto generally reassures children that their instincts are correct.

When listening to Posie being interviewed there are many times I've been aware of that if she had given the kind, less blunt answer, she'd have walked into a trap.
By being unequivocally clear, she has avoided allowing herself to be tired up in knots.

I was scared of panto dames as a child but never understood why and I tried to like drag as I got older, but my first experiences were of drag queens as bouncers in nightclubs, which again felt threatening and aggressive and a bit unpredictable. Someone wearing a costume to cross social and personal boundaries.

When a drag queen goes into a library are you getting a person being their true self or a persona? How can interacting with a persona help with understanding and inclusivity?

Thank you, @RufustheSpeculatingreindeer. I've read the article. Still can't actually believe it. That is literal child sexual abuse, in public, IN A SCHOOL, in front of adults responsible for those children's safety.

Jesus wept.

@Buzzinwithbez Yes! There was one particular TV thing I saw where mid way through the person debating her tried to do an "aha so if you think that you DON'T think transwomen are actual women" and she somewhat scathingly said I already said I don't think they are. If she'd been less direct earlier she would have either walked into the trap or concede the point, looking like she'd changed her mind or was dishonest/inconsistent.

I was one of those kids. Got v embarrassed when a panto dame picked on me as an audience member many many years ago.

I agree they have the same DNA as drag queens, and they are often the innuendo slingers in panto aiming above the kid's heads at their parents.

The difference is they don't crowbar in a story about non binary giraffe's and then go on to tell crude sex gags at a later evening gig. I mean, if they aren't CBeebies fit, why should they be performing to children? That's my litmus test.

I have to admit DQST has made drag queens go a bit sour for me, having never really minded about them at all.

I'll let you in on a little secret. Pantomime dames scare children (younger ones in particular) or they find them embarrassing and uncomfortable (older children)
You missed the word some out there.
Some children.
I've grown up with panto and have gone every year as a Christmas tradition since I was little, and still do now as an adult.
Always found Widow Twanky hilarious rather than scary
Have to say have never seen a drag queen type pantomime dame, always been the old fashioned ones (not saying there never are any of course, just not personally seen them)

Gigglebiz!!
Past blast, making me nostalgic for the kids being Cbeebies age again, they used to love that!
me too
Dina Lady, Gale Force and Anne Tique 😁

I think the reason for the change from the boy being played by a girl was that they started putting handsome young male stars in the roles, at some of the more prestigious/bigger pantos. Basically as a way to draw crowds. To some extent, other companies followed.

It dilutes the whole concept, IMO.

I will say that I have never been scared of panto dames, or clowns, or people in costumes generally. I even wanted to be a clown for a while as a kid. Granted, I always had a rather dark sense of humour. But this idea that no kids like them is not true.

Yes, and Rapids Johnson who is always on the look-out for wildlife, but somehow always manages to miss it.

I think the principal boy being played by a man seemed to coincide with soaps having handsome younger men. I think the roles can be very well paid in the more prestigious venues, I expect there's a gender pay gap too. No one seems to be arsed that a traditionally female role has been taken by men.

Regarding dames, I don't remember being frightened of them but I'd have died (still would) if I'd been singled out or (eek!) called up on stage.

I think it's arguable that they are problematic. Even if they were played by women the characters themselves need rewriting. Perhaps they should just be recast as male characters, at least some of the time. Although they're so often written as sexually frustrated that might come across as a bit rapey.

Paul O Grady never twerked in from of a minor.
Neither do pantomime dames

And pantomime dames are different to drag queens!

Some people on the thread say they think it's all problematic and "woman face" though, was referring mainly to their thoughts

And the conflation of the two can be employed with duplicity.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/30/call-drag-queens-pantomime-dames-fool-protestors-librarians/

Weird that you quoted me, when I pointed out loads of differences!