Real Feminist?

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Can someone please summarise the whole Real Feminist, KJK not considering herself a feminist, socfem vs radfem thing please? Which feminists on twitter are opposing her and why? I seem to have missed it all. Seems like we should all be doing the same thing - standing up to the MRAs, protecting female single sex spaces and protecting vulnerable children, so I'm unclear where the break is? And why.

She is just not doing it properly.
The mainstream media will not (would not?) platform people with gender critical views so KJK has spoken on any and all platforms that would let her; including Tucker Carlson (Fox news).
Rightly so. «No debate» is impossible to challenge if you cannot have your voice amplified anywhere.

This has led her to being accused of cozying up to the far right.
Which is not evidenced in anything she says. She was always left-wing, Labour voting is what she says herself,

Seems obvious to me. I've always found the TERFs are Nazis or even right wing just laughable. Clearly most women who are concerned about women's rights, and lesbian women in particular, are going to be left leaning.

Which feminists have a particular issue with her and why?

I consider myself a feminist and have seen nothing to make me not admire and support her, this is not a disingenuous post, I genuinely want to understand. I can't see how any minor issue with personality or approach or marketing can be seen to have any significance compared to the wider threat from misogyny and violence that comes from the TRAs and MRAs and their supporters, such as what we saw yesterday in NZ.

Labour voting

ex-Labour member, even - she first encountered the gender thing in Labour circles.

And I actually think that's part of the reason for the vitriol - I can't imagine the same sort of vicious attacks against someone who was really on the right. This sort of thing is reserved for those on the left who step out of line.

Yes it's like being black and choosing to vote for Trump or something. It's like committing a double sin. The vitriol is magnified by a factor of 10. It's as if you don't have a right to be an individual and take a different path from the group.

Yes, it is only the left leaning women Doing It Wrong who are told to STFU and let the oh so efficient proper lefties do it the proper way.

Which makes me laugh, because they are so intensely incompetent in getting ANY one else interested.
Often connected to the very fact that they are so navel gazingly right-on left.

Like all the accusations lately of KJK not denouncing nazis quickly enough, and then not the right way. Because she has been talking on right wing media platforms in the USA because NO ONE ELSE would have her!
And then it is her fault that members of right wing (and far right orgs) also might think that sex is immutable.

Putin thinks sex is immutable, and on that one thing I agree with him. I still do not condone his invasion of the Ukraine.
And you have to constantly state these kind of things, lest you immediately will be accused of aligning yourself with the devil and his great grandma.

There’s been so many threads already like this

It's been like this for months

Yes probably, but I am busy and have sort of avoided them up to now as they sounded tedious and hair-splittingy. And I know my own mind and what I think so it's never really been a priority to find out.

It's only because I saw something KJK said about not being a feminist and about certain well known feminists having an issue with her on twitter, and that I am planning on attending the London Let Women Speak event, that I thought I should find out. I'm a regular on this board but, honestly, I havent got the time to trawl through old threads trying to piece it together. I know people on here will know so I'm asking for a TL,DR summary, if that is not considered too cheeky. I don't know any openly GC women or even women that have a real stated interest in feminism in RL so you lot and twitter and a bit of ovarit are all I've got.

Chris Rufo, DeSantis' attack dog in Florida has made a point. No matter how intellectually compelling Quillette etc are in putting the gender critical case (or for him, anti-CRT), only ACTION matters.
And what I see in Kellie's case is a total conviction and attitude to change things, not just talk about it.
So while her and other GC activists like Kara Dansky and Abigail Shrier are shunned by liberal left MSM like CNN etc, they're fully on board with going on Fox, to the fury of men's activist captured Left and handmaidens everywhere.
And alone of the mouthy females out there, Kellie's gone further than everyone in putting her safety on the line to shine the disinfectant of light on the TRA vitriol whilst laying the acorns that will grow into the Kellie oaks of tmrw.
So GC feminists wary of Kellie's approach should buckle up...she's taking them on the journey her way, whether they like it or not.
The movement needs the super visible weathervanes like JKR, the intellectual heavyweights like Kath Stock, the data crunchers and communicators like Helen Joyce...and the bulldozing take no prisoners TRAs worst nightmares come to life politically extremely incorrect tornado-like Kellie.

'm a regular on this board but, honestly, I havent got the time to trawl through old threads trying to piece it together. I know people on here will know so I'm asking for a TL,DR summary
cant put the work in but want other women to do that for you? Yes too cheeky.

That's rude and disappointing, especially as I've spent the morning reading about you and the history of the Maori language. I'm a data scientist and the MN search tool is crap, it is not an efficient use of my (limited) time to randomly trawl through 1000s of historical posts to try and work out what's going on when plenty of people who have been able to be more attentive already know and could summarise. It's depressing really. More in-fighting when we should be united against the common opponent of misogyny, in all its forms.

This article is a very good summary of the background to the shunning of KJK by left wing identified feminists.
https://www.thehelenjoyce.com/joyce-activated-issue-21/

That's great, thank you. I have already sacked off work I need to catch up on, exercise, the supermarket, watching my kids play sport and the housework today so am adding to my reading pile!

It's always been this way in feminism and to the detriment of women. So I'm not surprised that KJK rejects the feminist label.

I am a feminist and am grateful to all women who fight for women's rights. I fucking hate it when the discourse is all about slagging off individual women. Play the ball not the player.

Yes, Helen Joyce pretty much saying GC is not a right v left issue, and not drawing as many allies under the banner, rejecting right wingers if you're a leftist as a purity test, will help lose the battle.
She's dead right.
I suspect Helen isn't the greatest fan of Kellie's "a spade is a spade" style, but knows she's a massive asset to the fight.
Dr. Jane Clare Jones? She's of the opposite mindset, GC feminism is a pure class based left fight, right wingers not wanted.
Too bad most of the biggest perpetrators aiding this fake worldview are the leftist feminists, Ash Sarkar, Polly Toynbee, etc.

Does anyone actually believe, though, that if a woman with impeccable "leftist" or "socialist" credentials did what KJK is doing (by which I mean travelling around the country and the world making space for women to speak relatively freely about their experiences) that she would be tolerated, let alone welcomed or platformed? I mean, imagine that Nicola Sturgeon had a change of heart and decided to spend her retirement demanding that women be given the same rights and porivileges as men in practice? Or Diane Abbott, or Yvette Cooper, or whoever you like. No, that person would also "become" right wing, far right, Nazi, white supremacist, transphobic, homophobic, etc. We've already seen it with Rosie Duffield, Jenny Marra, Johann Lamont, Joan MacAlpine, Joanna Cherry, and now Ash Regan.

The issue isn't the specific politics, it's that feminism itself (or the fight for women's rights, if you like) has been branded as inherently regressive and reactionary. It's in bad enough taste just being an icky old bio-woman, imagine being gross and selfish enough to speak up for women as a class? Where that leads, though, is to would-be feminists saying fuck it, I can't win. And then it's a choice of compromising or sidelining your fight for women's rights but still trying to fight for other stuff you might want politically or putting women's rights first and potentially being forced to compromise on the rest and/or being cut off from people who should be your natural allies. Whoever wins from this, it's not women and girls.

Completely agree Serena.

This should not be a left versus right battle. It should be a women versus misogyny battle, because TRAs are a men's rights movement. What disgusts me more than almost anything (as a second wave feminist) is the left feminist movement acting like turkeys voting for Christmas, either because they believe the lie that TWAW or they think KJK is a right winger (she's not) and can't bring themselves to side with anyone not in their precious camp.

Listen up all you left so-called feminists. KJK - ex feminist, ex Labour, now women's rights campaigner is forced to speak to the right because many on the left refuses to engage.

I just read the UK Daily Mail report and the headline calls KJK a "women's rights campaigner". Yes. In stark contrast to the mainstream Australian and New Zealand media who call her erroneously an anti-trans campaigner. All the protesters against KJK in Auckland have clearly soaked up the incorrect and biased media reports like the sheep they are - there's an awful lot of sheep in NZ by the way as we know. Woolly minds must be catching.

One elderly couple gave an interview saying that gays and Lesbians had to be protected from KJK. The idiots didn't even seem to know that KJK is protecting gay and Lesbian rights.

It's forced teaming and has been used against left and right wing feminists. So RW women are put in a box with Trump and LW women are put in a box with Owen Jones.

You can even see it on this thread.

Can you?
See it on this thread I mean?

Yes.

From what I've seen, pretty much all feminists who speak up for women’s rights on a certain range of “hot topics” (single-sex accommodations, surrogacy, porn, and prostitution/sex trafficking are the big ones) get put in the Trump Box, though. Like the Labour and SNP politicians I mentioned upthread. Even left-wing feminists who are critical of perceived cross-pollination with anyone right of centre - someone like Julie Bindel or Ruth Serwotka or Claire Heuchan or Sarah Ditum, for example. Or WPUK, or FiLIA, or Radical Notion. They’re all in the Trump box to TRAs - and largely to the media, SM, and the general public.

Let’s say I’m in the Trump box now because I’ve said that Kellie-Jay should be allowed to hold her events, even if I have misgivings about certain aspects. I don’t get switched to the Jones box if I say I want to nationalise utilities or abolish national borders or legalise abortion on demand with no term limits or raise top-bracket taxes to 80% or seize the means of production and redistribute them to the workers or campaign for Labour to win the next general election. I stay in the Trump box until I apologise, recant, and grovel specifically about my wrong-think on women’s rights.

And Jones didn’t get switched to the Trump box when he said he wouldn’t date a transman. Nor did Keir Starmer or Ian Murray or Richard Burgon when they wouldn’t sign the Labour LGBTI+ Youth Pledge, nor Humza Yousaf when he claimed that Isla Bryson is “at it”.

How do I get into the Jones Box????? (And no, I’m not wearing this T-shirt!)

How do I get into the Jones Box?????

Get on your knees to Dylan Mulvaney and say TWAW. Obvs

I would, if freaking Kamala Harris would get out of the way!! 😄

But that's pretty much what I mean by I stay in the Trump box until I apologise, recant, and grovel specifically about my wrong-think on women’s rights.