Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Real Feminist?

71 replies

SmartHome · 25/03/2023 13:25

Can someone please summarise the whole Real Feminist, KJK not considering herself a feminist, socfem vs radfem thing please? Which feminists on twitter are opposing her and why? I seem to have missed it all. Seems like we should all be doing the same thing - standing up to the MRAs, protecting female single sex spaces and protecting vulnerable children, so I'm unclear where the break is? And why.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
DemiColon · 25/03/2023 23:57

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 25/03/2023 20:56

I would say the vast majority of American Conservatives are GC.

I wouldn't. They put as much importance on gender roles as the gender ideologues - the difference is that they think the roles are fixed by your sex, rather than being able to hop into another gender box on a whim.

I don't think that the majority of mainstream conservatives, even in the US, are advocating very strict, inflexible, gender roles.

They might think that biological differences between man and women tend to mean they will tend to different roles, especially where kids are concerned, but that is a pretty common POV almost across the board.

Do people really think of someone like Condoleeza Rice as believing women are heavily constrained by gender roles?

BlessedKali · 26/03/2023 00:32

These women need to publically apologise and stand by their fellow adult human female.

Real Feminist?
Real Feminist?
Real Feminist?
BlessedKali · 26/03/2023 00:33

I am amazed that Jane Clare Jones managed to write an entire fucking magazine about KJK, but not even one tweet condemning auckland.

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 26/03/2023 02:02

BlessedKali · 26/03/2023 00:32

These women need to publically apologise and stand by their fellow adult human female.

Seems unlikely that JB will, here’s prominent TRA and self-described ‘architect of the GRA’, Stephen Whittle bragging about friendly Whittleself is with JB and how much Influence Whitteself has over her.

(screenshots from Reddit)

Real Feminist?
Real Feminist?
Real Feminist?
IcakethereforeIam · 26/03/2023 02:02

I unburdened myself on another thread about the 'purity' feminists who, with insinuation, exaggerations and, sometimes, outright lies, made the ammon and loaded the weapon which they left for anyone to use.

I was thinking of the posters on these threads (all now 'no, not me, guv' or 'how dare you'). It's depressing to be reminded how high the rot goes and I can't pretend it's just disingenuous tras.

Yes, apologies are well overdue. I'd settled for them just stopping but it's not me who's owed an apology.

IwantToRetire · 26/03/2023 02:16

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

DysonSpheres · 26/03/2023 05:02

DemiColon · 25/03/2023 23:57

I don't think that the majority of mainstream conservatives, even in the US, are advocating very strict, inflexible, gender roles.

They might think that biological differences between man and women tend to mean they will tend to different roles, especially where kids are concerned, but that is a pretty common POV almost across the board.

Do people really think of someone like Condoleeza Rice as believing women are heavily constrained by gender roles?

I certainly don't think of Condolezza Rice as being against women not presenting in typical gender roles, and there are many US conservative women in politics, some of whom are ex-navy or army.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 26/03/2023 05:35

UrsulaPandress · 25/03/2023 18:21

I’m a dyed in the wool conservative and a TERF.

It’s not political to me.

Me , too (though I generally don’t say so for fear of derailment and abuse).

I think some ‘left wing feminists’ need to realise that conservatives with a small c - but quite often with a big c as well - are the natural allies in the biology wars. My DH is pretty right wing ( though he does not oppress me and does a lot of housework) but he is enraged by the TRA activities, especially in their attempt to take over womens sports.

He has actually started a movement within a fairly high powered traditional sports body. Many of the other ( mainly) men there were just not aware of what is going on, now they are, and they are horrified. I think that there will be a real and considerable push back as a result.

This would not have been achieved by dismissing them as MCP 🐷, or rejecting non left wing allies.

BonfireLady · 26/03/2023 10:09

FKATondelayo · 25/03/2023 15:08

This article is a very good summary of the background to the shunning of KJK by left wing identified feminists.
https://www.thehelenjoyce.com/joyce-activated-issue-21/

Great article. Thank you for posting.

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 26/03/2023 10:23

MisogynyNonConforming · 26/03/2023 09:58

If you genuinely want to know why she's considered right-wing @SmartHome , take a look here:

Womans Place Article

Pink News Article (MN is referenced)

The National Article (has lots of links, including to the above 2 articles)

There’s rather a lot of spin and disinformation on those links so
do proceed with a skeptical air.

Penis News isn’t a reliable news source for anything (and certainly not a story featuring a biological woman!)

raspberrywine · 26/03/2023 10:40

@Allthegoodnamesarechosen That's interesting about your husband raising awareness amongst the (mostly) men within the sports body and providing impetus for pushback. Considering his politics (I'm being facetious here).

Which brings me to the "pure" left feminists who won't let go of KJK. I guess they never work with conservative women, small and big C? Because the best way to tackle the erosion of women's rights is with cross-political alliance. I know that Baroness Nicholson and Conservative Women (sorry, I forget their actual name) are working behind the scenes across all the parties. That's within the actual corridors of power. Whilst the "pure" feminists, with no actual power, stay in their own bubble spouting their own brand of purity politics.

BonfireLady · 26/03/2023 11:02

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 25/03/2023 18:32

I used to hold an elected officer position in my local Momentum group and was one of the founder signatories for the Labour Womens Declaration but ‘The Left’ left me.

Now I’m a crypto fascist, apparently.

(cartoon by Colin Wright: https://www.realityslaststand.com/p/my-political-journey )

I've not seen this cartoon before but I love it! Very relatable and also somehow comforting to see it called out in this way.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 26/03/2023 11:11

They might think that biological differences between man and women tend to mean they will tend to different roles, especially where kids are concerned, but that is a pretty common POV almost across the board.

Whether it is common or not is irrelevant. It is not GC. It is not necessarily incompatible with the wish to advance women's rights, or even to break out of those roles. But believing gender roles are biologically based is gender essentialist, not gender critical.

DemiColon · 26/03/2023 14:16

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 26/03/2023 11:11

They might think that biological differences between man and women tend to mean they will tend to different roles, especially where kids are concerned, but that is a pretty common POV almost across the board.

Whether it is common or not is irrelevant. It is not GC. It is not necessarily incompatible with the wish to advance women's rights, or even to break out of those roles. But believing gender roles are biologically based is gender essentialist, not gender critical.

Perhaps. It's still a total mis-characterization of what conservatives believes to claim they have these deeply regressive views on gender roles. It's hard to see how they actually maintain that belief given the actual evidence of how conservative women behave,, even in the US.

But maybe that's the real issue?.

The number of people who believe all elements of "gender roles" are only culturally constructed is pretty minuscule, including on the left. The vast majority of people think that's a load of bollocks, and that reproductive roles really do inform to some extent how social roles play out, both directly and indirectly. (That's not to say they don't think there can be oppressive, or arbitrary gender roles.)

This is I suspect why that kind of constructionist feminism also struggles to reach a lot of women around questions like motherhood. Most think that is more than just carrying and pushing out a baby, and not just a socially constructed role.

So you are already talking about a tiny section of people who could count themselves as GC. I've wondered if this is why the Real Feminists are so aggressive in their alignments, what they don't want is the majority of regular women on the left to realize their views on gender might be closer to those of many mainstream conservative women. They want the votes and political power of those women.

So they try and paint the conservatives as scary people who believe women should all be barefoot and pregnant, rather than, say, the secretary of state, or an army general.

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 26/03/2023 17:20

DemiColon · 26/03/2023 14:16

Perhaps. It's still a total mis-characterization of what conservatives believes to claim they have these deeply regressive views on gender roles. It's hard to see how they actually maintain that belief given the actual evidence of how conservative women behave,, even in the US.

But maybe that's the real issue?.

The number of people who believe all elements of "gender roles" are only culturally constructed is pretty minuscule, including on the left. The vast majority of people think that's a load of bollocks, and that reproductive roles really do inform to some extent how social roles play out, both directly and indirectly. (That's not to say they don't think there can be oppressive, or arbitrary gender roles.)

This is I suspect why that kind of constructionist feminism also struggles to reach a lot of women around questions like motherhood. Most think that is more than just carrying and pushing out a baby, and not just a socially constructed role.

So you are already talking about a tiny section of people who could count themselves as GC. I've wondered if this is why the Real Feminists are so aggressive in their alignments, what they don't want is the majority of regular women on the left to realize their views on gender might be closer to those of many mainstream conservative women. They want the votes and political power of those women.

So they try and paint the conservatives as scary people who believe women should all be barefoot and pregnant, rather than, say, the secretary of state, or an army general.

Good post.

Surely no one actually believes the gender blank slate stuff?

We know way too much about evolutionary biology across the mammal world to fall for such fringey-fringe crap (except perhaps the TRAs who say women just need to train a bit harder if they want to beat the biological males entering their sports categories? 🤦‍♀️)

Humans are just big brained mammals, after all.

IwantToRetire · 26/03/2023 20:55

Have no idea why my post was deleted as I took some time to provide links that showed what some women have said / alleged about KJK in direct response to OP asking for back ground information.

I didn't make up the quotes. They are still live on SM.

Why would MNHQ delete them?

Totally confusing and apparently non consistent policy.

Sorry OP, some of the quotes from women's groups would have answered your question but MNHQ doesn't want you to see them!

Hopeless to have a forum where "policy" seems to sabotage it purpose.

RealityFan · 26/03/2023 21:16

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 26/03/2023 17:20

Good post.

Surely no one actually believes the gender blank slate stuff?

We know way too much about evolutionary biology across the mammal world to fall for such fringey-fringe crap (except perhaps the TRAs who say women just need to train a bit harder if they want to beat the biological males entering their sports categories? 🤦‍♀️)

Humans are just big brained mammals, after all.

I'm afraid the Blank Slate is all the rage again. Nurture 100% over Nature.
So, according to the Blank Slate, we come into this world with male or female plumbing, but gender trumps sex, and gender is purely how the world reflects upon you, and how you want the world to see you.
Ie one is a self "made" man or woman, plumbing and ability/inability to get pregnant is wholly immaterial.
If you follow Stephen Pinker, world's premier evolutionary biologist, he finds it preposterous we've ditched inherited purpose and function for the Blank Slate or Intelligent Ape.
And he's been attacked for sticking to the sex binary.

DemiColon · 27/03/2023 00:34

I don't think PInker is a biologist, isn't his background more like psychology?

WearyLady · 27/03/2023 00:44

Are you thinking of Richard Dawkins?

RealityFan · 27/03/2023 08:19

Yes, correct on psychology. He genuinely fears for the recent popularity of the Blank Slate model.
Dawkins has always been simple and straightforward on sex v gender, he sees trans activism as just another unreconcileable religion.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page