Starmer rowing back on self ID - what do we think?

[JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff]

The Times is reporting in its live politics feed that KS has explicitly said Labour will not push for self ID without public backing. I know not everyone can access their content so here is a copied n pasted version: what do you think?

Sir Keir Starmer has shifted Labour’s position on transgender rights as he said the bitter rows over Scotland’s Gender Recognition Bill showed the party must consider public opinion on the issue.The leader of the Labour Party has previously insisted it was committed to updating the Gender Recognition Act to introduce self-identification for transgender people.However, in a significant shift in Labour’s policy, he said the backlash over the SNP’s gender reform bill had made him think again. The SNP passed legislation this year that would make it significantly easier for people to acquire a gender recognition certificate and reduced the minimum age for doing so to 16. The bill was blocked by the UK government.Starmer said: “I think that if we reflect on what’s happened in Scotland, the lesson I take from that is that if you’re going to make reforms, you have to carry the public with you.

“And I think that’s a very important message and I think that’s why it’s clear that in Scotland, there should be a reset of the situation.”

It’s not those that vote Labour no matter what they need to convince anyway.

It’s the people who likely voted for Johnson that they don’t want to lose.

It’s also Starmer not getting his arse handed to him as Sturgeon did, he knows it hence all the weak waffle

Oh, are we not allowed to say it was a Tory policy now? Because it was. This whole shitshow happened under and because of the Tories.

I'm delighted the Conservatives and other parties eventually learnt from what happened to Nichola Sturgeon. It's a shame it took so long.

Does it really matter who started this policy as surely its more important who recognises that this policy is not fit for purpose and actually harms 50% of the population. Starmer thinks its fine. Its not.

I'm still waiting for trantrums from the labour tras, until that happens and he faces them down sfaic nothing has changed.

You can say what you like.

I am also allowed to comment on what you post, especially when you post incorrect information.

Stating that the policy originated with the Tories is factual, the insinuation they still support this is not, nor that a vote for Labour is one that helps bury self id.

Again? Really? You're like a dog with a bone. This is the feminist section not AIBU where you may be able to fool the uninitiated.

Your inaccuracies have been pointed out many times.

@Himalayanclouds65 " Again that’s a very good point, one I agree with, but equally doesn’t life itself become pretty intolerable and meaningless if women can’t heat their homes or pay for food for their dc or get a gp appointment or call an ambulance? I mean people are being denied basic human dignity in many of the most deprived areas of the uk, not to mention in the corridors of our A & E departments. To my mind, when I have a ballot in my hand, I have to address those issues first and GRA rights second. It’s not a good choice to have to make. "

All of those things from receptionists, to hospital cleaners, triage nurses and those treating diagnosed patients in A&E are predominantly women. If you don't know what a woman is, how are you going to identify their needs? Even staff need their safe spaces for changing and toileting, then we have female patients finding themselves sleeping in the same rooms as male patients, sharing the same toilets and bathing facilities, let alone being in a position of being at their most vulnerable and perhaps having to use bedpans/commodes near men, no dignity there, nor is there where men are performing intimate care on young girls/women regardless of what the girls/women want but sure, let's just aim for the votes of tra's, that'll win an election. Just no.
As for within ordinary households, again, making sure there is food, warmth, clothing etc., falls predominantly on the shoulders of women, as does unpaid care work.
When precisely do you think he might actually do something for women?

Too right I'm like a dog with a bone. I will never forget or forgive the Tories for the damage they have done to UK women and our rights.

These are the views of the Scottish public on the GRR Bill, as of early February.

As you'd expect, opposition to it increases with age but, even amongst 16-24 year olds, 30% oppose it, and 22% are Don't Knows, so only a minority are actively in favour. So there are plenty of Gen Z dissenters out there, even if they are understandably wary about outing themselves.

For Millenials and younger Gen X, the next age bracket, 42% are opposed, against 37% in favour.

So we need to challenge the myth that it's only older people who are uncomfortable with self-ID.

The Ellie Reeves interview.
https://twitter.com/OkBiology/status/1638902201669111808?s=20

It's magnificent. They have no answers.

https://news.sky.com/story/keir-starmer-will-lose-election-campaign-on-day-one-over-his-trans-rights-position-labour-strategists-warn-12841099

Given they didn't move forward with any legislation what damage exactly did they cause?

I'm not defending their policy under May.

Rather I'm confused why you seem to suggest on this issue that the CURRENT policies of the LP and Tories favour a vote for Labour?

It's like suggesting that a TRA should vote Tory now because they historically brought the concept of self id to the fore and I'm pretty sure you'd get told where to go with that suggestion, so why do you expect GC to fall in line with the reverse concept?

That’s very interesting. I haven’t considered the various arguments surrounding the issue like this before. I don’t know enough about the internal workings of the LP for a start.

But I think you may be slightly underestimating the female Labour MPs of the old left who were silenced under Corbyn, some of whom are very well embedded in the trade union movements, and some of the older more traditional members of the trade union movements themselves. A good number of whom are being told to present a united front currently. I may be working on out of date information here though from the last election.

But if you are talking about ordinary members of society finding the very idea of self ID bonkers; surely a good few of those will be members of trade unions?

I agree that this issue played an important role in the downfall of the SNP but isn’t that part of why KS is softening his stance now? It has given him leverage. I’m not saying it isn’t a cynical move on his part - I doubt he has particularly strong convictions on this matter either way tbh - he’s a bloke. But I think he is open to changing his mind, as recent events have shown, if the arguments make sense to him and there is enough support among voters, MPs and other members.

I just have to believe that there will be more Labour MPs and members brave enough to stand up and be counted on this issue than they were previously and that the pro-GRA movement’s toxicity and bullying tactics will be called out and quelled.

I may be wrong to bet on KS, but we have to vote in some form of alternative government to the current incumbents.
I can’t in all conscience vote for the Tories ever again. The Labour Party is riven with divisions on so many issues that they will be forced to resolve once in power but I believe the voting public are ready to return to more left to centrist values and part of that I believe, I hope, is a return to common sense when it comes to GRA.

Yea that’s true. I can’t argue against that.

You hate the Tories, fine, I've no intention of trying to convince you otherwise. Your concerns for women's rights are not sincere enough for you to understand any of the history about how we got here and you like having something to blame the Tories for.

The ground work for self ID started shortly after the ink was dry on the 2004 GRA, during Labours time in office but I don't blame them for that anymore than I blame them for the 2008 financial crisis because that would be stupid.

I am surprised there is so much opposition from the younger generation. I had no idea it was as strong, if Scottish youth can be taken as representative of youth across the UK as a whole and I don’t really see why not?

As PP said, the shadow minister for domestic violence read out a man’s name in the list of women killed by men in the last 12 months.

^ I also find this completely indefensible.

I admit to being swayed by all of you in my opinions here. I’m still unable to vote Tory though and I refuse to waste a vote. What the hell to do?

I suspect the answer for tonight is sleep on it! 😄 Thanks everyone for an interesting debate.

I hope someone in the Labour Party responsible for their election campaign reads this thread.

Hmmm.

Someone up thread (I'm afraid I forgot who) said he was trying to buy votes. I wish I thought he was. That would be us halfway there; I want him to buy my vote with various policies! The only part remaining then would be whether I was convinced he'd keep his side of the bargain.

Sadly this actually sounds like Starmer musing that Sturgeon didn't do enough to get her electorate on board with a policy that he and Sturgeon each believe in. It's his personal resolution to lead a more persuasive, more effective public campaign for the same flipping policies as Sturgeon, before he puts the bill through parliament.

I am surprised there is so much opposition from the younger generation. I had no idea it was as strong, if Scottish youth can be taken as representative of youth across the UK as a whole and I don’t really see why not?

Naturally, the media never mention this, and instead there is a constant refrain about how all young people support self-ID, and it's only us rights-hoarding old dinosaurs who don't.

Where the terms of the question are clear - which often polls about trans issues aren't - you can see similar patterns. For example, YouGov asked the British public whether TW who had committed a sexual offence should be in a women's prison. Younger people were more likely to say yes but, even amongst 18-24 year olds, only 25% said yes (compared with 15% of the population as a whole). There were only marginal differences between Tory and Labour voters - fewer Labour voters than Tories thought TW should go to a men's prison, but only around 15% in both groups said they should be in a women's prison.

Labour and the SNP are very seriously out of step with the entire public over this. No wonder the reverse ferreting has begun.

@BreadInCaptivity they wrote genderwoo into government policies, including the Maternity Bill.

They put male sex offenders into women's prisons.

They allowed men on women's wards.

They repeatedly put TWAW ministers at the head of Education, is it any wonder our children and young people are confused.
They repeatedly put TRAs at the head of the Women's and Equality Com.
They put a trans MP onto the Women's and Equality Com.
They reported women to their employer and the police for tweets.
They were duplicitous throughout.

Labour are getting worried. Their poll lead is starting to fall away.
Starker needs to get a grip as at the moment he looks like he'll be snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

He also has had consistently low personal pollings about his leadership which, according to some boffin on Newscast, are an extremely reliable predictor of electoral success.

Like the Dems in the US, Labour seem to really struggle with the concept that they need to appeal to swing voters, instead of constantly targeting people who are already guaranteed to vote for them or who are unlikely to vote.

Only 47% of people under 25 voted in the 2019 GE, compared to 71% of over 65s. So although Labour enjoyed a strong (43 point) relative lead in the youngest age bracket, the total number of votes by this group was low. Yet they continue to obsess about attracting young voters when having 50% of the over 65s would be almost as valuable to them as 100% of the under 25s - it would be fewer votes in total, but they would more usefully distributed, whereas the youth vote is highly concentrated in a few constituencies (mainly university towns).

By contrast, the Tories are usually laser-focused on swing voters/marginal constituencies and only occasionally get distracted by ideology.

I would prefer it if he did things because he genuinely realised that they were the right thing to do.

I don't trust a politician who is only implementing a policy because they think it's popular rather than because they believe in it. If they don't believe in it then they will probably bodge it.

My concerns for women's rights is very real. I question the sincerity of anyone so willing to overlook the damage of a party that:
Cut funding to women's charities.
Implemented fiscal policies that disproportionately damaged women.
Practically decriminalised rape and sexual assault.
Brought the trans shitshow on all our heads.
Gaslit women.

Vote Tory if you want, but don't pretend you're doing it for women.

I won't be voting for anyone.

Unless, possibly, a couple of parties form an electoral pact to introduce proportional representation and then hold another general election without passing any new legislation.

But since that's not going to happen, and so my vote is only ever going to be a protest vote, Jeremy Hunt will win again in my constituency and this time I won't do anything to try and stop him, because the only other candidates are Labour and Lib Dem who both hate women. None of them deserve my vote.

Once he has five years in power stretching ahead of him he can introduce self ID and there is not a damn thing any of us will be able to do to stop him.