Starmer rowing back on self ID - what do we think?

[JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff]

The Times is reporting in its live politics feed that KS has explicitly said Labour will not push for self ID without public backing. I know not everyone can access their content so here is a copied n pasted version: what do you think?

Sir Keir Starmer has shifted Labour’s position on transgender rights as he said the bitter rows over Scotland’s Gender Recognition Bill showed the party must consider public opinion on the issue.The leader of the Labour Party has previously insisted it was committed to updating the Gender Recognition Act to introduce self-identification for transgender people.However, in a significant shift in Labour’s policy, he said the backlash over the SNP’s gender reform bill had made him think again. The SNP passed legislation this year that would make it significantly easier for people to acquire a gender recognition certificate and reduced the minimum age for doing so to 16. The bill was blocked by the UK government.Starmer said: “I think that if we reflect on what’s happened in Scotland, the lesson I take from that is that if you’re going to make reforms, you have to carry the public with you.

“And I think that’s a very important message and I think that’s why it’s clear that in Scotland, there should be a reset of the situation.”

What @Floisme and @teawamutu said.

Oh, give over, what a ridiculous statement. No one has been captured by the Tories. Theyve just been abandoned, ostracised and fucked over by Labour

It's the plaintive cries of "stop being mean about the Tories, it's not their fault" that makes me believe that FWR has been captured by the handmaidens of the Conservative Party.

You may not care about the destruction of women's rights under this government, but I do.

I wonder if those who can’t look forward for whatever reason will lament when Labour push gender ideology further or rejoice just because they’re in power.

They’ll probably just stop posting and we won’t know.

You may not care about the destruction of women's rights under this government, but I do

And there is the sanctimonious tone that loses you the argument, every time.

I'm starting to wonder if you work for Tory HQ, because you are doing such a bang-up job of reinforcing women's recent experience of Labour as patronising and dismissive.

Let's be realistic here. None of the parties give a shit about women, none of them.
Politicians are driven by self-interest and preserving their own careers, they will vote for whatever keeps them in power and push through unpopular reforms as long as there is not enough groundswell against them.

The Torys would have pushed self-ID through and in fact, they were going to because it seemed like an easy win for grabbing the younger voters, they just hadn't looked at the impact on women (because that didn't matter) and underestimated a growing opposition, they back peddled not because of women's concerns, but because it threatened votes for them once the general public became more aware.

Sturgeon KNEW self-ID was unpopular, but her ultimate goal was always another indyref. I doubt she even really cared about trans people. But given the current trans are the most oppressed narrative etc, She could use it to white knight knowing full well it clashed with UK equality law and the government would be forced to invoke S35. She could then use that to 'prove' that Scotlands democratic rights were being trampled over and to prop up her call for independence. If Isla Bryson hadn't made a timely appearance you can bet Labour would have continued to support the SNP on the self-id question.

It's exactly because I do care about women's rights that I will vote for whatever party vows to uphold them. Because none of them give a shit about us anyway,

Without the ability to name our sex, we lose the ability to collect meaningful data to guide funding and policies that affect every aspect of women's lives.

Well you're belief is wrong. And do you honestly think we would spend so much time talking about the current state of women's rights and the erosion that is happening if we didn't care?

Just because I'm left leaning I'm not going to blindly follow Labour down a path of the complete destruction of women's rights.

The Tories have enabled a lot of the current shit, but they are currently the party in power, so if one of the MPs in power does or says something that is positive for women of course we are going to be on board with that.

Some of us might even contact that conservative MP to inform them that a Labour voter is in agreement with what they said. Because they are more likely to continue to rectify the things that have happened if they know that not just conservative voters agree with them. To just go oh that person standing up for women is a conservative therefore we must disavow ourselves from their words is just Fucking ludicrous.

It's exactly because I do care about women's rights that I will vote for whatever party vows to uphold them. Because none of them give a shit about us anyway

Exactly. And poster after poster has made this point to @TooBigForMyBoots. I can't remember a single post that claimed that the Tories are anything other than opportunistic on this issue. All we are saying is that, when choosing from a range of bad options, we reserve the right to pick the least bad one. For some, that means choosing the party least likely to legalise self-ID, for others, that means choosing the party with the most progressive approach to taxation and benefits. Both choices are valid.

And do you honestly think we would spend so much time talking about the current state of women's rights and the erosion that is happening if we didn't care?

Of course we care. After seeing NZ it’s clear what is at stake. I don’t want to lose on this.

Society has somehow been convinced by a small group to redraw its lines not based on sex to women’s and girl’s detriment. If we oppose we can expect violence and silencing.

The left are good at that and I don’t want to go there.

It's because I'm a habitual Labour voter that this issue has thrown me so much. I can't quite believe that the Labour Party is willing to throw women under the mensrights bus. But it does look that way. The Twitter thread quoting from Hansard 20 years ago illustrates how long running Labour's commitment to cross dressing is. I had no idea, it passed me by at the time.(Just to reiterate, if a man wants to wear traditionally female attire that is his business. But it doesn't make him a woman.)

I would be delighted if Starmer, Sarwar and Drakeford hold up their hands and say they got this wrong, specify that under EA2010 female means female biological sex.

But until that happens I would be a fool to vote for Labour. Maybe that won't matter to them. Voters like me might be statistically insignificant.

After this weekend I'm still more strongly convinced I am not willing to trust a movement rapidly starting to make noises resembling organised violence, and 'give us women's rights and make them stop protesting or we'll hurt people' in the hands of the floppy Labour party. That is not to say I think the current party in power is doing much better, just that I think Labour would be even worse.

Don't you think by now with so many Labour women alienated + violence KS would have woken up and have shown public support for Rosie Duffield?
I mean I'm dumbfounded. They need middle-aged women's votes!

Exactly. Instead they think they can hoodwink women with a menopause workplace plan.

A plan anyone can benefit from, apparently. Even if you’re born with a penis.

They seem to be doing a fair amount of what you describe above. These things take time to filter through, though.

Absolutely me too, lifelong Labour voter and I feel like my eyes have been opened to how badly Labour views women and I can't close them now.

I am desperate to vote Labour. I want to vote Labour so badly, I could scream with frustration at what they are doing.
But they are so wedded to their social justice identity and appearing right on and progressive that they will throw women's rights in the bin rather than back down on this. Its identity politics writ large.

Its like Corbyn. I agreed with a lot of his policies, BUT as a person I could see how stubborn and arrogant and unwilling to reverse a position he was. He would rather cut his nose of to spite his face than admit he could have got it wrong. he was so ideologically driven he wasn't willing to compromise and that's not something you want in a leader. it felt totalitarian. and that's how the Labour party are coming across to me now. They are mumbling the right sort of noises (without actually promising anything) but I really fear that when they get in this stuff will be railroaded through due to their majority. I cant trust them.
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Voters like me might be statistically insignificant.

Maybe, as long as so many women are feeling this way and won't let the issue drop - they are still going to be under pressure to deal with it.

even looking ath top priorities for the incoming new SNP leader, the mainstream news channels put sorting out the mess that that is Self Id comes near the top. who would have thought that just a matter of months ago? We were stil being told it was a total non issue.

So many typos.....

You may not care about the destruction of women's rights under this government, but I do.
You wrote this in response to one of my posts, TooBigForMyBoots so I assume it was directed at me.

Unlike you, TooBigForMyBoots I make no secret of my voting allegiances. I have supported Labour for approaching 50 years and, if they can convince me that they won't legalise gender self-ID, they might yet get my vote again. I will wait until they publish their next manifesto before I decide. I'm embarrassed at how low I'm setting the bar but I still feel a strong attachment to the party. In short, they have everything to play for as far as my vote goes. If I don't seem to pay much attention to this government's record on the issue, well then that's because I have no intention of voting for them - the same goes for the Greens and Lib Dems. If Labour fails to convince me then I will hope for an independent candidate with a functioning brain. Failing that, and as a very last resort, I will reluctantly spoil my vote.

I am repeating my position because although you are here week in week out, I have never seen you state yours - other than that you don't vote Labour. Of course that's entirely your right and nobody should ever feel pressured into revealing how they vote, but I can't help noticing that while you berate us incessantly for discussing our voting choices and dilemmas, you never seem to reciprocate.

They're expecting the female vote en masse, with the pressures of deteriorated NHS and social care, underfunded childcare, cost of living crisis, and piss poor rape convictions rate/Starmer promise to reduce violence against women pledge, to seal the deal.
Trans rights etc is being viewed by Labour as a niche or edge issue, unlikely to cost any seats.
Sadly, I think that analysis is going to be accurate.
With the BBC and MSM hardly covering the Posie NZ story, even less so the Lesbian Project debacle, hell, even the grooming scandals haven't caught fire as stories demanding politicians take a stand, the GE will be decided on NHS, childcare, housing, cost of living.
Not even the small boats migrants crisis or misfiring Brexit will be pivotal.
Unfortunately for everyone on MN, and gender criticals everywhere, our tribulations matter not a jot to Starmer. He's banking on older women voting on traditional left lines, younger women coming out to vote for the first time.
Gender and trans may not get a look in.

Sadly, I think that analysis is going to be accurate

We’ll see. Sturgeon likely thought the same. Protected, good polling, no problem.

Ended leadership.

Yes , they were, but have been effectively side-lined now. I half expect Caroline Nokes to defect to the Lib Dems any time soon. And the difference is they are now in a minority in the Tory party now - and the front bench has spoken out and made the statements that Labour have not, and will not.

I suggest that Labour should not rest oin its laurels; there is plenty of time to go yet - and so far Rishi Sunak seems to come across far better than Starmer - as a good guy doing a good job in difficult circumstances. Kier Starmer is devoid of warmth and popular appeal. These things do matter.

I also think Labour is under-estimating, once again, the red wall in not reading the room when it comes to migration. If they listen to what people are actually saying in the barbers and hair salons and on the street - they'll be surprised.

Only when she railroaded Self ID. And refused amendments that would have stopped sex offenders transing, even after arrest. And then sank in that ITV interview where her incoherence was amplified loud and clear.
Starmer is currently avoiding that level of confusion. But with at least two of his inner team with trans IDd kids, and most of the party TWAW, his splinters from fence sitting grow ever deeper.

Starmer now has this problem: from the TRA perspective, he's said no to self-ID. Yousef distanced himself from it and now says he will try to go ahead. We know the Greens' position, what's Labour's now? Will they whip again in in favour, in the event of a Holyrood vote on it? (Presumably one will either be procedural or manufactured).

He also said in 2020 that the NEC shouldn't choose constituency candidates. But the NEC just blocked Corbyn. And the local constituency party has told the NEC to do one. So what's his position there?

These are things you're either for, or against.

It’s interesting having children in their twenties and late teens as you can see how quickly this ideology took hold (the difference between the experiences in school of my children) and also how quickly their year groups came to their senses when they grew up a bit. There’s definitely an element of the only ones believing in this are the look-at-me types that are aggravating and being avoided in the kindest possible way.

The problem with trans ideology is that it can never stand up to scrutiny so it’s always going to be on the losing side.
eg. Conversion therapy. You can’t have a ban on gay conversion therapy and trans conversation therapy as they contradict each other.

Labour also look so far away from their roots. My working class farmer/mill ancestors (most people have them) would have thought people were mad going along with twaw and tmam. They were very much a spade is a spade.