Should IVF be available to lesbians?

[TooBigForMyBoots]

And single women? Or should assisted conception only be for infertile women in heterosexual relationships?

It was a non-starter, really. We looked into adoption, because DP's mother was adopted and DP always expected she would adopt. I was less sure. It rapidly became clear that, as an umarried lesbian couple, we would not be approved any time soon, so the point became moot. DP was already nearly 35, so we could not afford to wait around. We assumed that fertility treatment would also take a couple of years, so were surprised DP fell pregnant the first month. For me, it was hugely important to be there during pregnancy and childbirth. DD isn't biologically mine, but I've seen her and known her since before she was born. When she was born she knew my voice. It matters so much.

Yes, I am making assumptions, but quite educated/thoughtful ones, I think?

I do take your point that single mothers who conceive through IVF will often be older.

But - you know, unexplained infertility doesn't mean there is no reason the couple didn't conceive naturally! It only means the cause has not been discovered. This may very well be a leading reason why IVF is an issue. We do not yet know why some hetero couples don't fall pregnant; that does not mean there is no reason.

No, it won't. You are presuming IVF causes the issues. If we knew this to be true, you'd be right. But so far, we only know that the issues are correlated with IVF.

I do of course know that. I also know more than one heterosexual couple who have had IVF for their first baby and gone on to have subsequent children without the need for assistance (and sometimes quite unexpectedly!). Therefore it’s not that straightforward that there may be an unexplained underlying issue. As seen from the outcomes of conception through IVF there is actually still a lot we don’t know about human procreation, including why there are increased risks of miscarriage and problems babies may have when born through IVF.

The risks seem to be based on maternal and paternal factors, but also on IVF itself.

Nope studies do show it.
Don't worry there isn't much of an incentive to study these things. There's too much money to be made from it. It's like lots of things doctors do, plastic surgery, ivf, all this trans bullshit. Loads of money to be made. People ignorantly trust doctors but lots of things take decades to come to light, if indeed they ever do see the light of day, by which point its all very very much too late..

YY, it's so complicated. This is one reason why we can't be sure it is IVF that is the issue. It might be - but we really don't know yet.

Yes and given that I do think there are legitimate concerns about the NHS providing this treatment. What happens if it becomes apparent it IS the process that causes or contributes to problems? The NHS would be on the hook for it. Reproductive technology is an ethical quagmire.

There are other alternatives to IVF (after all attempts to treat the infertility have been exhausted which one would assume happens first):

1. don't have a baby
2. end the relationship and try to have a baby with a different man

Given the success rate of IVF one of those is the most likely option anyway?

They're not wonderful choices to make but neither is buying some other bloke's sperm with little to no idea about him, and a child growing up missing that part of who they are. In my opinion.

For pregnancy to occur naturally there needs to be both male and female - that cannot happen in a same sex partnership regardless of fertility - the same goes for a single female as they cannot naturally get pregnant on their own. So no I do not think IVF should be used for this

This is one step away from ‘god said marriage is between a man and a woman’. Who cares whether she’s a woman? They still can’t make a baby in the same way?

???? I have entered the twilight zone again. Saying a lesbian can’t produce sperm because she is a woman…. Is that a religious belief, not a biological fact??? 🫤

This

You’re missing the point. You’re saying my partner and my rights should depend on whether we are straight or not. Which yes is a ‘biological fact’. But straight couples who can’t conceive are ‘biologically’ infertile. So really the only difference is are you same sex or opposite sex. Which is an arbitrary prejudice, perpetuated by this country’s affiliation with the church. I’m not saying you’re religious, I’m asking you to think about where this line you have drawn comes from. Even asking the question ‘should lesbians have XYZ’ is debating whether we can discriminate against people on the basis of sexuality. Now, people are entitled to think we can, but they will have to put down their ‘Im not homophobic’ badge as payment.

Agree with this.

I just want to add to this - please ignore all the info here on stats and percentages from people who do not know what they are talking about or have found these quickly on google and think they are doctors🙄🙄 honestly it's embarrassing.

Chances of success are very unique to the person, including things like their follicle count, age, how you respond to medication and AMH levels. Your consultant would tell you your chances of success based on your health. For example, I am in a heterosexual couple but based on my medical profile we have been given a 70% chance of a live baby per embryo transfer.

It IS available to lesbians with fertility issues.
but not having sperm isn’t a fertility issue, and there are options for gay women who don’t have fertility problems that aren’t IVF.
like self insemination using donor sperm, or IUI at private clinics.

‘So what about lesbians who also have fertility problems? You know that lesbians can also have endo, PCOS, cancer that effects fertility, etc etc?’

thry are eligible to be treated on the NHS. Have several lesbian friends who have been.

Really pleased to hear that. I'm not in the UK, so unaware of eligibility there. Where I am IVF is funded privately.

What you just said there is so dense I need to look at it sentence by sentence:

You’re missing the point. You’re saying my partner and my rights should depend on whether we are straight or not.

I am not sure how you got this from what I said. However yours/your partner’s rights are the same as everyone else’s rights, in my opinion.

Which yes is a ‘biological fact’.

I don’t think biological facts are rights.

But straight couples who can’t conceive are ‘biologically’ infertile.

Yes, one or the other, or together in combination, would be considered infertile if they couldn’t conceive, as long as they are regularly having unprotected sex during the woman’s ovulation.

So really the only difference is are you same sex or opposite sex.

This is where I am a bit lost. No matter how frequently or well-timed same-sex couples have sex, they will never be able to conceive, because conception requires male and female gametes. Their lack of conception is not indicative of infertility, but indicative of their not engaging in any activity where conception could occur.

Which is an arbitrary prejudice, perpetuated by this country’s affiliation with the church. I’m not saying you’re religious, I’m asking you to think about where this line you have drawn comes from.

Conception can only occur when male and female gametes unite. This is nothing to do with religion. Are you saying that nature/biology is prejudiced because sexual activity between same-sex couples cannot result in conception?

Even asking the question ‘should lesbians have XYZ’ is debating whether we can discriminate against people on the basis of sexuality.

The OP chose to phrase a question like that. I don’t think you should be taking that up with me.

Now, people are entitled to think we can, but they will have to put down their ‘Im not homophobic’ badge as payment.

You’ve lost me now.

Define assisted conception though. I had endometrial growths on my ovaries that were causing, among other things, my body to attack any embryo I conceived. 6 weeks after my ablation surgery, I conceived my DS. So that was technically assisted conception. What about women or men with hormone deficiencies that can be adjusted with medication? Would you ban gongonadotropin, clomid, letrizole, etc?

Medically assisted conception means a wide variety of treatments that can help repair something that has gone wrong in a person and is preventing conception and/or maintaining a pregnancy.

With the NHS now in the business of sterilising children there’s going to be a massively increased burden on them to provide IVF.

I do think there’s an argument to be made that all women (including fertile lesbians and fertile single women) should have the same access to IVF as fertile women in a heterosexual relationship with an infertile man, but at the same time I don’t think the NHS can necessarily afford the surging demand.

I’m amazed they still fund it tbh.

Assisted conception is much more than just IVF. It includes IUI, medication and procedures such as surgical sperm removal.

To access assisted conception as a straight couple you have to have been trying naturally for 12 months. Then it's a postcode lottery as to what is available.

Lesbian and single women have not had to jump through that hoop as ... well... they can't. By the same logic though, they could be very fertile and just not 'tested it'. Being single or lesbian does not make you medically infertile.

To make it fair, I suppose you could require single and lesbian women to have tried IUI or informal artificial insemination for 12 months before being tested for fertility.

IVF should be available to anyone who wants it. Publically funded IVF should only be for those who have fertility issues.

Whatever the rules are they should be the same for everybody.

Surrogacy should be banned.

It isn’t though, believing god said marriage is between a man and a woman is an act of faith. Two women cannot create a baby together because of the facts of human biology.

You had a medical problem which would probably have worsened and perhaps caused greater problems if left untreated. Your medical problem was treated. If that was the extent of the treatment you had it’s a massive stretch to say you had assisted conception.