Women’s rights have gone ‘too far’, say majority of Gen Z and millennials, study shows

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www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/03/09/womens-rights-have-gone-far-say-majority-gen-z-millennials-study/

I agree too. Women working full time, managing children, home, shopping, cooking, garden, so many balls to juggle. It's bloody awful and IMO a relationship breaker. Then you get to be a single parent juggling with less income.

I'm a boomer rural Wales no nurseries so you stayed home until both children in school. We were skint, high interest rates, shared one car. No holidays. BUT we didn't need food banks, universal credit. The poverty now is unreal. Taxes, energy bills, council tax, were all stable rising slightly each year.

You're working yourselves into the ground. This is where feminism went off the rails.

more and more I am thinking that actually us Millenials have been told we can have it all and we are equal etc etc - and actually we are so so far from equality it’s just a big scam. I’ve felt this so strongly since having a baby- far more so than before. I think actually we’ve aimed for equality in the sense that we can be the same as men, rather than actual achievable equality which would be more about appreciating women as women - putting value on raising children and seeking an equality based on our differences. I’m not sure I can articulate what I’m trying to say - but the version of equality we are hankering after will never be equality imo and just adds more value to what are typically male roles and life patterns which for many women isn’t really equality and won’t give us any equality. It has the secondary effect of killing the birth rate as no value is placed on family life or child rearing by society so that will be a fun problem to contend with in the future; for all of us. Xx

The issue is the so-called ‘wonderful life of equality and choice’ we are supposed to have through working, has actually lead to women doing it all, rather than ‘having it all’

You seem to be blaming feminism for this outcome. Many men are still not prepared to let go of the right to use women as housekeepers; while at the same time resenting women for being leeches that deprive them of their hard earned cash.
The alternative was that women did not fight to have the right to equality in the workplace. Are you saying that would be preferable?

@justasking111 Yes - but I used to think it was a Western problem. I lived in places that never had the feminist movements the same way the UK had (and completely different culture generally) and things were worse there in some ways. So I don't think its feminism as such. Rather that globally in the developed world wages have stagnated relative to costs or even fallen, the economy relies on people consuming rather than producing which also means people are encouraged to spend more and live extended childhoods etc.

so what are you saying? That women choosing to work is the problem?

Because frankly, I'd agree that life is hard. That two people working means less time and more stress at home. But I'd also argue that
a) women (or men) shouldn't HAVE to stay at home, lots of us get real satisfaction and joy out of having careers
b) in many cases, two parents working is an economic necessity. This is not a feminist issue, it's an issue with the cost of living
c) work etc has changed. Long hours are far more standard than they were and an always-on-culture makes it difficult to switch off when you're not at work. Because of COL, commuting is often a much more onerous process (and more expensive). Productivity expectations have increased massively and that brings additional stress (and work hours).

So the solution isn't to say, "ooh, women are idiots for wanting it all". The solution is to say, "what should we be doing at a societal level to improve things for everyone? How can we make it possible for one parent to stay home, ion that's what they want? how can we make it so that work expectations and resources are lowered for individuals? How do we ensure that highly talented women can make a difference?"

yes @justasking111 this idea of equality where women are doing life ‘like men’ in the name of equality means actually women are actually just working 24/7, again to often support men through being an employee, creating wealth for their employer and also at home supporting their husbands lives. This isn’t equality it’s a scam we’ve been sold imo. I’m not having baby no2 because I’m not prepared to do even more work than I’m already doing. That’s my personal situation but I think it applies to many many women. Xx

Yes. this. Amazing. Women get screwed but it's OUR fault that men haven't stepped up.

Young people naiive enough to buy into MRA armchair theory. Half of whom won't have to painfully discover through life experience what bullshit they've been sold, and that they were sold it in the name of male domination of them. The new progressive thing is to be male supremacist while trying to convince females that they want it and love being oppressed. (Which tells you that the conscience is nagging those pushing this that if they had to be honest about it they know they couldn't justify it.)

not sure that men managing to get married in their 20s is a sign of their inherent high quality.

They want to keep women out of the workplace and feel resentment about carrying the whole burden and refuse to pay women to not work, or to have children. Ask them to make it make sense and you're written off as a misandrist.

"The research seems to suggest that far greater proportions of the youngest generations are afraid of speaking out in favour of women’s equal rights. Which is is interesting given how often younger people are portrayed as fearlessly speaking up for what they think is right."

The research shows that younger people are the opposite. They are fearful of the repercussions of speaking about what they truly feel is 'right'. There have now been 2 or 3 polls that have show this over the past 2 years.

The age group of 18-28 (and I would say even younger) don't voice their opinions (or at least their true opinions) with their friends, social groups or in class because they are worried about the result.

That is way when any poster ever says that 'the younger generation' are the most tolerant and that we are dinosaurs that will die out soon, I laugh in their face. Because they are living in a carefully contrived fantasy where they believe they are righteous. And it is society, and social media, that has colluded in creating this situation where those who believe they are 'righteous' and 'on the right side of history' are in fact either wilfully ignoring or simply don't understand the dynamics at play where in fact the true opinions of that age group are being hidden like a guilty secret.

The very opposite to tolerant.

That is what happens with language is destabilised. Where even the word tolerant means the very opposite of what it was intended to mean.

This sounds suspiciously like you're saying that women shouldn't pursue equality in the workplace but that there should be more value placed on raising children and the work that they do in the domestic sphere? Have I misunderstood?

What about the women who don't want to be valued just for raising children etc? What about those who feel that they want to have an impact beyond the domestic sphere? What about those who want to protect their financial independence?

My mum was a sahm because it was the done thing for women of her social class at the time. She was bored and unfulfilled and deeply regrets the fact that she didn't have more opportunities to use her talents beyond the home. She became depressed and miserable, and we felt guilty for limiting what she could do.

Life wasn't all that idyllic when women were stuck at home, you know.

"The share of the British public who say they are scared to speak out and advocate for the equal rights of women has doubled since 2017, rising from 14 per cent to 29 per cent. The majority (71 per cent), however, continue to say this does not apply to them."

"Younger generations tend to be be most fearful, with Gen Z (38 per cent) around twice as likely as baby boomers (19 per cent) to feel this way."

We can add this as just another poll that points to the intolerance of the 'tolerant' society.

I think aswell a lot of this debate always talks about ‘men stepping up’… I don’t personally think that will really happen as it’s too conceptual and doesn’t really mean anything. You can’t quantify it. I think the debate should be reframed around the idea of equality being levelled by looking at our differences and ‘making up’ for those. Better rewards/provision for childcare for example so that if you are in that role you are not ‘losing out’. Better benefits for single parents, particularly single mothers. Huge overhaul of the CMS so mothers categorically cannot be left unsupported. This type of outlook would lead us to better equality and one which is more achievable than simply aiming for an equality which is based on typically male lifestyles and roles which is what we have today and it is unworkable for women and absolutely unachievable for mothers. X

Has it been pointed out that the survey was international covering 32 diverse nations and it is the average that is being reported.

The responses to individual questions varied wildy dependent on country. For instance 78% of those questioned in Thailand thought women's equality had gone too far whilst only 24% of Portuguese thought the same

Well firstly working class women have always worked, and secondly I agree that women should have the option to do real, interesting, difference- making jobs (like men get to) because we don't all WANT to stay home. I recognised by age 18 that the world was set up unfairly and that if men won't pull their weight domestically then women get the burden of the double shift. The problem is that we still don't have real choices in the same way men do. My friend is a real high flyer, had kids late, and really struggled afterwards, whereas the men in her office all had kids and...didn't. Because they had wives.
I guess the 30 something's saying feminism has gone too far are simply knackered mums of young children who have given up on the idea of having it all, and I get that because at that stage of life your focus is more on nurturing maybe.
Also, I do notice that in my work there is an army of 20 something women with fast progressing careers and I imagine they feel unstoppable, so the reality of being 52 or whatever in their career won't have kicked in yet ( all the top brass are men .)
I'm Gen X and my husband is fully behind me doing really well at work so he can work less and stay home doing the hoovering! 😂

Agreed. Great post.

so what are you saying? That women choosing to work is the problem?

I didn’t even bother reading your post much after this because when a response starts with such reductionist hysteria you know the poster is basically impossible to have any kind of nuanced debate with.

Women, in many cases (not ALL just for the hard of analytical thinking skills) are not CHOOSING to work. They have to.

No not atall- my personal experience is that equality at work is far easier to obtain than equality in the home sphere and wider society because in the world of work we have a lot of regulation and legislation already existing. The reason many women struggle at work for equality is not down to their performance at work or their qualifications but actually the burden of the lifestyle that comes from being a working mother- what I am saying is that we need equality in wider society and that includes at home which is where all inequality begins and where it’s much much much harder to tackle. I know that life ‘stuck’ at home wasn’t idyllic and I’m not saying that at all- quite the opposite. I’m saying that equality in general life is more important as a priority because it’s not regulated like the workplace and is harder to reach for want of a better term. X

Completely agree with this. May I also add that my young son is now getting the message that masculinity is “bad”. I’m so fed up with this blue/pink/green haired mob shouting about their perceived grievances. Women and men are NOT the same and there will be differences.

OK. I don't disagree at all that equality in the home is much harder to achieve, and that this can impact on progress outside the home. I'm not sure I understand what you're proposing as a solution, though. What does "seeking equality based on our differences" actually mean in practice?

SAHM once both of mine were at school was so boring. I did some retraining at college computer wise and did a degree course in marketing. Then went looking for work. My terms were 9-3 Monday to Friday. I did get a job which I loved, some evenings expected for events. School holidays had a nanny some of the time, friend daughter. That swallowed up my salary. I coped well. If I'd had to work full time I wouldn't have. OH was in seasonal business so summers manic, but off season he did school runs, washing, cooking etc.

a lot of this debate always talks about ‘men stepping up’… I don’t personally think that will really happen as it’s too conceptual and doesn’t really mean anything.

I agree! ‘Men stepping up’ and ‘men holding other men to account’ is kind of the ‘Brexit means Brexit’ of the feminism argument here. What does that mean? Who should be holding them to account, individuals? If so, does your son/husband regularly take other men to task? If not, why not? Are they bad?

This idea that as women we should just passively sit back and let men control our lives and each other because ‘it shouldn’t be our responsibility’ is laughable - it’s shouting into the void and once again playing into men’s hands. If we want something, we should make it happen, not ‘wait for men to have an epiphany’ because how likely is that 🙄

Frankly I think it’s a school of thought for the slogan-loving, not-very-bright types.

So many ‘great ideas’ that we thought would help women have utterly backfired, and we’re too ideological to see it 🤷🏼‍♀️

What a complete load of bullshit.

@sjxoxo I totally agree. In my workplace, there is a lot of talk about female empowerment but not enough about how to actually allow women to manage having a career with motherhood. A solution with both parents working full-time with young kids is exhausting for the parents and not good for the children. Sharing the burden equally also means that both parents are run ragged and neither probably do very well in their careers. I would find it much better if we focused on how there could be career breaks and returners for parents, so that it would be possible to spend the years when the kids are young focusing on them, and then being able to work on career again when they are older.

Where some things can get my back up is that I have been in workplaces which have targets for % of women in particular areas - often 50% regardless of whether the applicant pool is 50% or not. In one workplace I was told that we had to get to 40-50% women, and that no excuses would be tolerated. As only 10-20% of applicants were women, we engaged in active sex discrimination, rejecting higher performing male candidates in favour of weaker women to meet the target.