Women’s rights have gone ‘too far’, say majority of Gen Z and millennials, study shows

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www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/03/09/womens-rights-have-gone-far-say-majority-gen-z-millennials-study/

I am 26 and pregnant with my first baby. I would never want to be a SAHM like my mum (she is Gen X), but I wish childcare was more affordable for couples working full time (my DP and I are the same age and work full time). Even if I wanted to be a SAHM, we couldn’t afford it. Living costs are so much more expensive nowadays. I have a really good professional career, but I can’t take a full year off.

The research seems to suggest that far greater proportions of the youngest generations are afraid of speaking out in favour of women’s equal rights. Which is is interesting given how often younger people are portrayed as fearlessly speaking up for what they think is right.

My hypothesis there would be that older women know everyone just views them as ‘difficult’ anyway so they fear being ‘cancelled’ far less than younger women. Younger people are very keen to speak up only in those areas and in those ways that will go down well. Standing for women’s rights is likely to be met with horror. It much safer to stick a rainbow on things and call yourself an ally on ‘the right side of history’.

The thing about being a young woman (as many of us can probably now reflect) is that you don’t believe that those horrible old hags are actually relevant to your future. So you aren’t likely to align yourself with any cause that looks pro-hag.

im too depressed by the idiocracy of this to comment

The thing is, the entire premise of a question about equality going ‘too far’ is flawed. You only get somewhat stupid responses to it.

The long and short of it is that working full time and having children is the worst of both worlds.

It's so depressing to see young women saying and feeling this. I have always worked FT, have had a great career and have been very hands on with my dc. Personally, I have always felt that I have had the best of both worlds.

I hope my dd won't end up feeling like you in the future.

The stats quoted in this article are pretty depressing, but I'm not surprised that younger generations are less aware of the discrimination that still exists. I think it becomes increasingly apparent as you get older and witness more.

I'm millennial. We can be pretty old!

I think the full context for our discrimination is denied us. Women's history isn't really taught in a way which explains that society was and still is to an extent built upon the back of free labour from women. Often reality only hits home after childbirth, but then we're exhausted. The full extent of male violence against women is only just beginning to be recognised and talked about. However most women still internalise shame and blame for their experiences of sexual violence.

When you're within something, it's hard to see the context. Moreover, it can be painful and scary to see the context and I think many people would prefer not to. That's before you get to the fact that seeing the context - ie a feminist analysis of male violence against women and male subjugation of women - is like social death to many and we're accused of being TERFs etc.

@Moonicorn We’ve kind of played into men’s hands and also the government’s thanks to some knee jerk feminism in the 80s and 90s, and I think younger woman are disillusioned with it.

I don't think we played into men's hands actually (controversial I know). Neither do I think women are the cause of men's troubles (not being able to earn enough to start a family etc). Rather I think that globalisation, urbanisation and other factors mean that 1 middle class professional earning enough to support a stay at home partner and children is no longer sustainable. You either have a situation like many parts of East Asia where one person (male) works Insanely long hours and never see their children while the partner (female) is at home with the children whether she wants to be or not. Or 2 working parents juggle childcare and work (and often the home burden falls more on the woman even though she also works). Neither are great but I still prefer the second version to the first.

That doesn't mean its a sustainable situation. But I don't think putting women/men at each others throats on this, or trying to turn the clock back is helpful

Men have been working FT and having children quite happily for a very long time.

The problem is not working (or the absolutely awful, patronising framing of it as ‘women having it all’); the problem
is that men do not pull their weight.

That’s true whether the woman works or not.

I mean I'm glad I have a job and a child. But many of my peers (male and female) spent their 20s grinding in low paid or even unpaid jobs to make it on the ladder and many are now in "decent" jobs in their 30s but can't afford a mortgage on a family sized home or if thy can its only with both working. I don't think its "boomers" faults either by the way. But I can see why people look back with rose tinted glasses (probably on a past that never existed). Or blame men/women/older generations.

Neither do I think women are the cause of men's troubles

Where did I say that?

Agreed!!

What was that experiment done in schools - where teachers made sure they spent 50% of their time talking to and encouraging girls and boys in the classroom. The boys then said afterwards they felt they were being ignored and the girls said they didn't like the attention.... this smacks of that.

You didn't and I didn't mean to imply that you did! but I have seen (even on mumsnet) the theory that women choosing to work is the main reason the cost of living has risen and women now have to work. And I don't think that's true! Also, more broadly, the idea that men can't find women because they are too picky about income often coincides with the idea women should stay home with children which is illogical. But I didn't mean you thought that! I was responding to the article.

The faux progressive movement we have now is a great way for individuals and corporations to virtue signal without any troubling of the status quo.

To actually address male violence and workplace inequality, there'd have to be one hell of a societal change. And too many are invested in that not happening.

Agree that race and class intersect with this. They are especially pertinent when looking at unfair, impenetrable systems like the police and top positions at city firms. In other areas though, patriarchal capitalism doesn't necessarily care what race or class you are. But it will always require some women's free/ poorly paid labour.

This.

It isn’t patronising. DH does just as much as as me, probably more. All childcare activities not ‘bibs and DIY’. Yet we’re both low level stressed because getting in at 5.3-6, herding children to the living room, going through book bags and putting away coats and shoes, hastily preparing meals and drinks, getting hands washed and bibs on and sat up, then watching a toddler painstakingly finish their meal, getting them upstairs, bathing them, brushing teeth, drying hair, changed into pyjamas, stories, final wee, bedtime, then washing up, packing bags, putting a load of washing on, sorting other washing, taking dog for a final round the block, getting things ready for the morning, before even being able to sit down, is a lot to even divide between 2 people 🤷🏼‍♀️

I’m on maternity leave (baby not yet born) and the difference in stress levels is phenomenal even though I’m not doing ‘much’. Simply having dinner ready for the moment they get home, and doing a few extra tasks in the day like the washing and hoovering really takes the pressure off.

*bins not bibs!

I find a lot of the treads on here from women suffering from 'gender disappointment' when they find out they are having a son, really sad. It is very noticable how anti boy (and men ) many Western countries are in the last couple of decades. I really get that it cannot be compared to the imbalance in sexes in China and India but I saw that New York now has more female babies than male babies. Someone on here was asking the other day for the reliability of Sneak Peak and how early you can get a result.
I wish that MN were not so anti men. It gives a false impression of how hated men are. Not true I hope on here or in real life.

Women's history isn't really taught in a way which explains that society was and still is to an extent built upon the back of free labour from women. Often reality only hits home after childbirth, but then we're exhausted.
This hits home to me. In my early 20s being the cool feminist I was all about empowerment, you do you, be kind, don't question an action if a woman says it's empowering, and I focused on individuals having opportunities to have it all. I fell into the trap of centring my feminism on the actions and opportunities of individual women and not women as a class.

There comes a point where if women are genuinely interested in feminism, they will realise that the (generally) older feminists might have a point when they focus on structural inequalities. The unpaid labour of women on a societal level is not highlighted in women's history and it means younger feminists find a home in superficial feminism.

👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿

Being anti misogyny is not being anti men!

Unless you are suggesting that all men are misogynists?

I adore my sons and the many other males in my life. I just don't have time for misogynists and want our misogynist society shaken up. Good men do exist and they are not scared by this.

I don’t think women are ‘too picky’, we have enabled the quality of men to go down with the ‘extended youth’ we encourage people to have.

I know of 2 men who have walked out on their families in the last few weeks. No major issues, such as cheating or abuse, they just don’t feel family life is for them any more (both have 2 year olds) and the grind was ‘affecting their mental health’. These are men in their early 30s!

This in spades.

RoseFl0wers · Today 10:45

The % for different gens are similar, despite the sensationalised headline. The article also doesn’t mention how many people were in each sample size.

As well as that, it'd be interesting to have a break down of answers by sex, as well as absolute numbers and percentages.

Yeah totally! But to speak up for the younger generation a little bit - part of the reason for the "extended youth" is that a lot of the traditional markers of adulthood (a decent job, your own house) take a lot longer to get to. The reasons for that are very complicated. But I agree people are also encouraged to extend their youth/not to take responsibility and I think that affects men more than women along with a false idea of the past (I know someone whose husband was never there on Sundays to help with the kids because he always went to football practice. When pressed he argued that he "had always gone to the football ever since he was little and his dad took him". But couldn't see that he was now in his dads position but doing less childcare.)