What are your thoughts on agender people?

[abc567]

Hello mumset, I am brand new here and made an account because I'm curious about how GC women feel about agender people. This is purely for my own understanding as I've read several posts from GC women on this site saying they do not have a gender identity, and I wanted to explore further the reasons why this is.

From my understanding, there are two types of agender people:

1. gender apathetic i.e. people who don't have a gender identity and don't care (gender has no inherent value to them so they do not mind gendered language being applied to them)

2. gender averse i.e. people who don't have a gender identity and actively reject gendered language (they are distressed at the gendered aspect of their lives and are more likely to seek an androgynous appearance)

Do either of these concepts resonate with you, or do you still feel very connected to your female sex despite lacking a gender identity?

I think other people can believe they have a gender identity - no skin off my nose, just like the Jehovah's witnesses at the end of my road probably believes in their immortal souls. I draw the line at them insisting in my sharing or validating their belief through acts or deeds, or profession of faith, and getting me fired, doxxed, abused or attacked if I refuse to do so.

@abc567 if you are an atheist, do you accept the possibility that other people could have a religious belief, even if you (and others) do not?

As others have said, I don’t care if other people believe in gender identity, but:

I object to having gender ideology presented as fact to children AND I object to gender identity (how you feel) overriding biological sex (reality) in safe spaces for women and children.

from your perspective would there ever be a possibility that other people could have a gender identity

What would that even mean? We know that some male people claim to be women, but that's all it is, a claim, and we don't have to think it's any more than that. All the pseudoscience around it isn't particularly convincing to me.

Gender is a belief much like religion, I'm not offended by it, I just don't share your belief

this. I only get pissed off if the Church of Gender refuses to accept the existence of atheism.

Wouldn’t it be better to pay MN for the opportunity to use their users as research participants?

And more ethical if you told people what their views are going to be used for?

People vary. But this is the right analogy for me personally.

religion: none
gender: none
politics: plenty
sex: female

😂👏

( well, that AND the invading of spaces categorised by biological sex with good reason AND the erroneous teaching as fact of this neoreligion in schools and workplaces)

Agenda, much?!

You haven’t really understood the arguments of GC women.

I reject the entire concept of gender identity. I don’t think an internal gender identity exists in anyone and I think notions of it are a recent creation of gender ideology. And I think it’s regressive and sexist.

You are trying to push us to answer in terms of an ideology we don’t subscribe to. It’s equivalent to asking atheists questions about how they feel about not being saved or being sinners. These are not concepts they believe in and so they don’t think in these terms. These questions don’t apply to them.

I genuinely don’t know what ‘connected to my female sex’ means. I am of the female sex. People who have the condition of dysphoria may feel a disconnect from their sexed body, but their experiences do not mean other people go through their lives thinking of themselves in terms of their connect or disconnect from their bodies. I think it’s really unhelpful if people are being encouraged to think of themselves in these terms by gender ideology.

what are those, wee knees either side a bell?

There is zero evidence of a soul's or a gender's existence but there is very concrete material evidence of biological sex.

I'm agnostic - I don't think you can prove or disprove the existence of god, a soul, etc. but I would never require anyone else to agree with me. I definitely think that where the material needs in reality conflict with religious belief, we have accepted legal and ethical frameworks to balance those conflicting rights thrashed out over literal millennia of religious conflict.

The issue with trans discussions has been the ideological insistence of total capitulation (#nodebate), a denial of both material reality and conflict of rights, and total ideological capture of those who are meant to safeguard - and the fact that the people whose rights are generally affected are women and the patriarchy and misogyny operates to subjugate their rights to others' demands.

Well you know, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the agender.

Lots of people believe in starsigns and I wish them no malice. They are free to believe fervently in Capricorn traits and call it a Capricorn identity if they wish. Or an astrological identity, whatever.

I think the problem here may be the word 'identity', tbh. It's meaningless.

Purely out of interest (and feel free not to reply as I'm sure you get asked these questions a lot!) - from your perspective would there ever be a possibility that other people could have a gender identity, even if you (and other GC women) do not?

No - as PPs have said, gender is nothing more than a social construct arbitrarily assigning the descriptors of feminine or masculine to people, colours, hobbies, inanimate objects ... what is considered 'feminine' and what 'masculine' varies between different societies, time periods etc.

I don't think about them anymore that no do other people.

However if anyone within earshot starts droning on about their gender I assume they are highly privileged and in need of something truly meaningful to do with their day then I zone out.

I do however appreciate a good Agenda ahead of a meeting

There really is no point in replying to this stuff in good faith.

Yes - gender identity is sometimes used to refer to something innate. GC people usually reject that idea.

I don't believe in a soul or spirit or self which is separate from the body. My consciousness is a product of my complex electro-bio-chemical brain, which is a part of my body. My 'self' cannot be separated from that body. I am not the captain of my ship - I am the ship. This is also true of other people, but I understand that they will disagree!

I reject the idea of a gender identity because I think the idea that certain behaviours/activities/clothes are for men or women is regressive.

I have sympathy for people who are unhappy in their bodies. I believe that 'self' cannot be separated from 'body'. I think treatment for those unhappy people should focus primarily on psychological therapies/mental health support to help them feel better about their bodies. However, as a liberal, and someone who believes that self and body are not separable, I can see that sometimes physical interventions such as hormones/surgery might be necessary. After all, since self and body are one and the same, body modification might produce changes in the self. That is, hormone treatment might make someone feel happier.

I think it can be worth posting to correct an obvious (deliberate?) rendering of a "gender critical" feminist position, and to explain the actual position in clear terms, for those lurking.

Exactly.

an obvious incorrect ...

So it's sort of akin to how atheist people don't consider atheism to be their "religious identity", they just don't believe in religion as an overarching concept?

Yes. I am very surprised you grasped that so quickly; it’s not how this kind of thread usually goes. Do you feel your question has been answered now?

I think agender people might want to consider spending less time worrying about identity labels and go outside and enjoy some sunshine and fresh air.

Why not? There's nothing so far to suggest the OP isn't posting in good faith, and even if they're not then it's an interesting discussion.

The PP who mentioned starsigns for instance is a comparison that I'll be trying to remember for future conversations. I have no problem in people believing in horoscopes, but I don't want them telling my kids that their fates are ordained by the stars