Any CofE members around here - LLF response

[PCCmember]

Long time mumsnet user (and FWR lurker) who has NC for this post.

Is anyone currently grappling with the outcome of the Living in Love and Faith process? Despite the sub-heading of LLF of "identity, sexuality, relationships and marriage", almost the entirety of the Bishops' response (available here: www.churchofengland.org/resources/living-love-and-faith/bishops-response-living-love-and-faith) - and the corresponding media reports - is about the new prayers that will be developed that can be used to bless same sex marriages/partnerships.

The question of " identity" got a one-paragraph address where they basically said how awful the debates on social media were and committed to church to "listening". I found this response quite hurtful to be honest; that legitimate safeguarding concerns regarding women's prisons, women's sports, women's single sex spaces are just dismissed as debates on social media. And they've had 6 years to listen! It's almost like the church has swallowed the language of Stonewall (they talk a lot about LGBTQIA+), but actually what they are really talking about most of the time is LGB and this makes me worried about unintended consequences of what they are trying to do.

If anyone is within a C of E church - how are these discussions playing out in your church at the moment? Ours is pretty focused on same sex marriage/blessing. I appreciate that many posters on here may not be Christians and may not have a positive view of the church, but I am particularly interested in hearing from other church members if there are any about here.

Have you got a link Xenia?

This is the linke but I just saw it by chance, I am Catholic not C of E and not really following all this stuff so it may not be a good or bad video - it just seemed to explain one point of view quite well

It’s hard to take this thread even vaguely seriously when you are followers of a religion that remains at the forefront, globally, of oppressing women and gay people.

You might think you’re all Progressive because COE itself is all tea-and-crumpets, but the global Anglican community is a hotbed of misogyny and homophobia.

Thanks for letting us know.

I don't think anyone is asking you to take it seriously Tuk.

I hadn't thought about it that way, Tom, but at a local level it went from 'there's a debate in the church about women being ordained' to every second church having a female Vicar within a generation. I missed most of that as I wasn't a regular at the time. It wasn't even discussed during my theology degree, as I remember. And DS was surprised 20 years ago, to know that men could be vicars.

Wow! I have just returned from a weekend away and have seen that we're up to 5 pages in this thread. I feel a lot less alone than a did a week ago. I didn't think that I'd get that many replies at all (or they'd all be in the vein of the one negative PP). Thanks all!

Catching up on some great responses:

Thank you so so much @Synodmember and @AnotherGSmember (and anyone else that I've missed) for all that you've done and planned to do to push this at General Synod. It sounds like the July synod will be a key meeting (not the least because also - I believe - the draft blessing prayers will be discussed/approved and the matter of whether same sex sexual activities are sinful or not - which the February synod did not discuss). Here is where I show almost my complete ignorance at how synod works - what do we need to do to push this issue to ensure that it is not pushed under the carpet again, and is actually discussed properly?

@Nina2023 - I am horrified! I hadn't actually seen that guidance and I had no idea that things had actually gone that far without any discussion!

@picklemewalnuts my DD is at of C of E school. The school isn't affiliated with my church - it's affiliated with the neighbouring parish which is Anglo-Catholic and more liberal. That being said, I'm not aware of any issues of this kind within the school.

@Shelefttheweb I completely agree, and that is part of my problem in this huge mess (as I see it). My church is evangelical, but not conservative evangelical (i.e we are in favour of women's ordination). The previous vicar as I say was very against SSM, however the congregation are divided with strong feelings on either side. Our church is one of the more "successful" churches and certainly seems to be thriving especially given that we're within a vacancy (and especially compared to a neighbouring parish - not the school parish, another one - who is also within a vacancy but really struggling and is more progressive/liberal in theology). FWIW, I thought that the Bishops' response was a really badly argued one with an almost complete lack of scriptural justification which left many questions unanswered and I'm not sure if I can go along with/separate out the SSM issue from the appalling silence, and worse than that - acquisition in silencing those who raise legitimate concerns regarding safeguarding and women's rights.

@Nina2023 again - absolutely brilliant questions!

In short, yes I am very interesting in being part of a GC CofE network/action/discussion group!

It was indeed a very long time coming. The first women to actually be ordained to the Anglican Priesthood was the Rev. Florence Li Tim-Oi in 1944! womensordinationcampaign.org/blog-working-for-womens-equality-and-ordination-in-the-catholic-church/2020/1/25/rev-florence-li-tim-oi-first-woman-ordained-in-anglican-communion
However she had to resign her license after the war, although she never renounced her holy orders.

@picklemewalnuts there are several trans priests in charge of parishes.

And a post-op trans woman in a senior diocesan position, with responsibilities in the national Church.

TBH I feel considerably more sympathetic to this person than to biologically intact male priests who dress as women.

I'm surprised! For all sorts of reasons.

How would anyone know the difference between a post-op transwoman and a male priest dressing as a woman? As I understand it part of the gender ideology agenda has been to erase the difference between the two. There are influential trans women/trans-identified men in the CofE, and they have a considerable platform.

@Nina2023 !!

That's great news Nina

Already a win!

That's amazing Nina! Thank you.

Well done to those who spoke up!

I’m an Anglican who entirely agrees with the PP who says the further we get away from the Bible the closer we get to just being a bunch of mates. I feel that there are elements of the CofE who want to be progressive and cool and nice, rather than reflect on what they truly believe, rooted in the Bible.

The Catholic Church has no problem taking a line on many issues, and for that I respect them, even if I don’t agree with it.

@Niminy @PotteringPondering
In a healthy organisation that wanted a trans policy (which affects everyone in the church, and has a potentially negative impact on women/ children), it would have been written by a team of people with relevant skills- eg a safeguarding expert, HR who know about balancing legal rights, one of these priests and a woman (like me- I'm not clergy though!). As soon as 3 male priests who all ID as women wanted to do it a Bishop or safeguarding person should have been able to laugh and say of course not! You're too biassed!
The fact that no one did suggests a very unhealthy culture ie
1- safeguarding is still a huge risk in the CofE that senior staff / Bishops don't care about/ understand/ prioritise

2- there is a culture of fear around the trans priests and no one dares challenge them out of fear of being accused of transphobia, which will impact their career
3- total ideological capture- even the safeguarding staff believe TWAW and put that before safeguarding.
I have witnessed all 3 and they are mostly still there- so even though I think the amendments are not finished yet, hats off to the female member of staff who knows safeguarding must be done without fear or favour...

meant all 3 attitudes!

Oh my gosh @Nina2023!!!!! This is absolutely fantastic! And on international women's day too!

Completely agree.

Your message about the hurried updates to the C of E guidance is great news.

Thank you so much @Nina2023 !

Great news indeed. Well done!
And happy women’s day!