Any CofE members around here - LLF response

[PCCmember]

Long time mumsnet user (and FWR lurker) who has NC for this post.

Is anyone currently grappling with the outcome of the Living in Love and Faith process? Despite the sub-heading of LLF of "identity, sexuality, relationships and marriage", almost the entirety of the Bishops' response (available here: www.churchofengland.org/resources/living-love-and-faith/bishops-response-living-love-and-faith) - and the corresponding media reports - is about the new prayers that will be developed that can be used to bless same sex marriages/partnerships.

The question of " identity" got a one-paragraph address where they basically said how awful the debates on social media were and committed to church to "listening". I found this response quite hurtful to be honest; that legitimate safeguarding concerns regarding women's prisons, women's sports, women's single sex spaces are just dismissed as debates on social media. And they've had 6 years to listen! It's almost like the church has swallowed the language of Stonewall (they talk a lot about LGBTQIA+), but actually what they are really talking about most of the time is LGB and this makes me worried about unintended consequences of what they are trying to do.

If anyone is within a C of E church - how are these discussions playing out in your church at the moment? Ours is pretty focused on same sex marriage/blessing. I appreciate that many posters on here may not be Christians and may not have a positive view of the church, but I am particularly interested in hearing from other church members if there are any about here.

As a parent of a trans-identifying person, I’m also concerned about this. I haven’t seen any guidance; actually it’s news to me that such a thing as an ‘affirming trans people’ service exists. If my child were to darken the doors of my church, I hope my child would be welcomed and not judged - but I would not be happy with any church affirmation. Gender ideology comes out of queer theory, which appears very questionable to me.

Two troubling posts.

How can we safeguard our young lesbian girls if we give them a better welcome as boys? If we can't show affirmation for gay teens, but we are encouraged to affirm trans identifying teens, what is that doing?!

Here's the pastoral guidance for clergy:
www.churchofengland.org/sites/default/files/2018-12/Pastoral%20Guidance-Affirmation-Baptismal-Faith.pdf

the service
www.churchofengland.org/prayer-and-worship/worship-texts-and-resources/common-worship/christian-initiation/rites#mm047

and the press release
www.churchofengland.org/news-and-media/news-and-statements/guidance-welcoming-transgender-people-published

You will see the press release falsely states the writers (all transwomen ) 'consulted widely' with those affected-but this did not include the groups representing transwidows, children of transitioners, families of teens who say they are trans, or female victims of trans identified abuse, many of whom would in any case be unable to speak freely to such a biassed male trio.

The Cof E is totally blinkered on this.

the pastoral guidance also says priests should use coerced speech/ wrong sex pronouns.
quote from guidance
' the preference of a transgender person in respect of their
name and gendered (or other) pronouns'

Even though it conflicts with belief in reality and the freedom of belief and speech of everyone else present.

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/pronouns/

Are you sure? It sounds standard practice of getting it in on the coattails of something else hoping people don’t notice.

What about detransitioners? Is there a service for them? Do they need to go through one, if they went through the affirmation service?

Given what it says in Psalm 139 about being fearfully and wonderfully made I can’t understand anyone of faith subscribing to gender affirmation. I know that gay people were born gay. But people are not born in the wrong body or sex. That is dysphoria and an over emphasis on gender stereotyping.

We didn’t discuss the T at our LLF course. No one really wanted to go there I felt. It was all very shallow and pointless tbh.

Yes. This worries me. A priest's job involves counselling the bereaved and sitting with the dying among other things. If I'm thinking of the same person you are, who seems to be rather self obsessed, I would not want that person with my elderly mother.

I'm also on General Synod, am conservative in my theology and also gender critical (and not in the way that some have characterised here as being unable to accept gender non conformity - I'm actually pretty non conforming myself). The current proposed 'conclusion' of the LLF process is likely to cause a massive split and disruption in the Church of England, so issues around transgender ideology may just get forgotten about whilst the church is dealing with that.

My observation would be that most of the bishops have not been paying any attention to gender identity or those issues. That is how the transgender reaffirmation of baptism vows prayers got through. Most of those involved thought it was nothing other than quietly being kind for a very very few people.

At Synod in February I spoke to the bishop who had to answer the question about the schools transgender bullying guidance which uses the phrase 'sex assigned at birth'. He had obviously paid very little attention to it and had no idea why the CofE was using that terminology. I think that, like schools, the CofE has been Stonewalled about the trans issue because nobody was paying attention.

Bishops are very busy and often assume that those who have written anything for them will have done so professionally. I will work with all my might to ensure that those who write any further guidance will not be allowed to get away with sloppy thinking about sex and gender.

I agree with @Allthegoodnamesarechosen that the idea of trans being a sacred journey is very concerning, particularly when it comes to children and how do we then treat detransitioners.

I'm a GC CofE. Nothing about LLF in our church yet. Might chat to our vicar.

@Nina2023 I hadn't heard of that

I'm not in the CofE (I'm in an Anglican Communion church). I read the LLF material and was a bit disappointed. I'm pro-SSM just because it seems to be right, and was hoping for a stronger theological justification for it. I didn't see that in LLF and I'm sure that wasn't for want of trying.

I was left with the impression that the senior leadership of the CofE got so massively burned over the issue of gay rights generally that it doesn't trust its instincts on trans rights and wants just to uncritically affirm them.

@HappyJellyBaby 'we have unisex toilets so no particular issues to grapple with.' more likely vulnerable women and child abuse victims just don't attend again, especially if the church isn't even checking the loos for hidden cameras.

@AnotherGSmemberif you are the woman who was filmed asking the Bishop this then thank you.

Hmm. I might know the odd person with the ear of the bishop. Perhaps I'll sound them out.

It needs a voice and we need to take action! There are two GC gs members on this thread and countless others who can influence. What should we be focusing on? I am very shocked aboht some of the things I have read on this thread and we need to change things before it is too late.

@AnotherGSmember I was trying to seek you out during synod to thank you for asking the question and offer you my support. I think we vote differently on the motions and amendments that went forwards but we vehemently agree on this issue. I would love to chat with you.

This has come up in our church because the local church school started going very very far down the rabbit hole. It’s not connected to our church (another parish) but many of our teens are at the school, so I have a good idea that around 70% of the church are really concerned about their teens being taught they can transition to the opposite sex. Another 20% are moderately in favour of what they would label trans inclusion, 10% probably have no idea about any of it.

It’s not something that’s been taught in church or youth group but Youth worker is quietly GC whilst keen not to be authoritarian or shut down conversation (if only that were true of the “other side”).

Thanks for your work on this. If you need parents quotes, teen quotes at some later date then please message me. We have a very large youth group.

I wasn't the asker of the question, but I helped shape the supplementary follow up with the woman who did!

Thank you those on GS for all you're doing. This is all very concerning. I've thought for a while that things in the higher echelons of the CofE are pointing towards capture but felt really helpless in it all because it's so difficult to articulate without being shut down and called bigot.

@Synodmember Do PM me and we can connect in July if the subject comes up! There are a few other conservative members with a strong passion about GC issues and I'm sure it would be good to ensure that we work together.
@creekingmillenial Thank you. If anything comes up that could be really helpful. I suspect that so much work now needs doing on the blessing stuff (interesting you noted the lack of theological depth @TomPinch - I agree!) that nothing will come to Synod anytime soon.

It's very reassuring to know that there are voices on my side on gs. Thank you.

Not CofE but similar denomination that follows the CofE in many ways. I believe that once we (the church) move away from the Bible as our authority in all matters relating to sex, identity, and relationships, that we’ve lost our anchor. We simply become a social club that does good works in the community.

I’m personally disappointed by the direction the CofE have taken, and I hope they change course.

Me too teacher