Any CofE members around here - LLF response

[PCCmember]

Long time mumsnet user (and FWR lurker) who has NC for this post.

Is anyone currently grappling with the outcome of the Living in Love and Faith process? Despite the sub-heading of LLF of "identity, sexuality, relationships and marriage", almost the entirety of the Bishops' response (available here: www.churchofengland.org/resources/living-love-and-faith/bishops-response-living-love-and-faith) - and the corresponding media reports - is about the new prayers that will be developed that can be used to bless same sex marriages/partnerships.

The question of " identity" got a one-paragraph address where they basically said how awful the debates on social media were and committed to church to "listening". I found this response quite hurtful to be honest; that legitimate safeguarding concerns regarding women's prisons, women's sports, women's single sex spaces are just dismissed as debates on social media. And they've had 6 years to listen! It's almost like the church has swallowed the language of Stonewall (they talk a lot about LGBTQIA+), but actually what they are really talking about most of the time is LGB and this makes me worried about unintended consequences of what they are trying to do.

If anyone is within a C of E church - how are these discussions playing out in your church at the moment? Ours is pretty focused on same sex marriage/blessing. I appreciate that many posters on here may not be Christians and may not have a positive view of the church, but I am particularly interested in hearing from other church members if there are any about here.

Very glad to see this discussion after the news over on Twitter that St James Picadilly is hosting a drag night today. Its Called Preach! - I guess it's a different gospel. I've never met the Rev Yin but think he's overdosed on queer theory.

Thank you to everyone on synod and to all of you acting at grass roots 💐

This thread has left me feeling both less alone and horrified that things might be worse than I thought.

In terms of what to do, some sort of GC network with a focus on safeguarding would be invaluable. Sharing information, working together. I think that a lot can be done in our own parishes by asking questions that prompt clergy and PCC to think things through on a practical level.

Hello again, I'm trying to coordinate a safe way for us to connect to set up a GC network. Do pm me if you would like to join in.

I contacted the Bishop who leads on prisons last year when the Police and Crime Bill was going through the House of Lords. I find it very hard to accept that we have bishops in our parliamentary system who had the opportunity to speak up for amendments designed to protect women in the female estate and they did not.

Getting sensible guidance to diocesan Safeguarding advisors is also absolutely critical. In our diocese none are even Christian but they hold huge sway.

It kills me that these people think they are cool and appealing to the young unchurched.

This is a brilliant idea re contacting each safeguarding officer. What aboht the National safeguarding team and the bishop in charge of safeguarding. Let’s see what we need to tell them.

And yet the most successful churches are those doing the exact opposite. I guess if you discard too much of the bible then it starts to seem pointless.

@BornInSin I'd love to be part of a network of GC CofE people. I'm a vicar and very concerned about the creep of gender ideology in the CofE. Lots and lots of handmaidens among women clergy. Last year the Children and Youth Adviser in my diocese ran a session on gender in the diocesan safeguarding week that was pure gender ideology. Totally captured and very worrying in the context of safeguarding week!

Yeah, for the most part it seems like the ones doing well are the more evangelical conservative ones, or fairly religiously orthodox Oxford movement type places.

@BornInSin I'd be really interested in being part of a group too. We could maybe have a private FB group?

This is true. I've read a few reports lately about churches that are growing and churches that are dying. As a general trend it's the more orthodox/evangelical/conservative that are growing well and the more liberal/'woke' that are not. It's not just the conservative evangelicals that are doing well, it's the more open evangelicals ie those that embrace women in ministry. It seems to be those churches moving away from scripture that are dying away and those falling over one another for inclusion but actually excluding people in their efforts to be kind - they can actually end up being unintentionally homophobic too in terms of embracing gender ideology. It's a mess.

Getting sensible guidance to diocesan Safeguarding advisors is also absolutely critical.

That's a really good point.

So does anyone know what sensible guidance looks like? Which specific policies should we be commenting on/ looking at or is there anything more general we should be offering them?

Many CofE safeguarding officers show a lack of concern for risks regarding males who say they are women until after conviction of the perpetrators(and few reach court anyway).

This reflects the fact many social workers are stonewalled
and Bishops, clergy and christians generally want to be seen to be liberal and inclusive of transpeople, even if a few women/ children are abused/ excluded from church on the way. Like priests who commit abuse, males who say they are women are the new 'sacred cows' in the CofE.

There is good general guidance on things like safeguarding and coerced speech available from Sex matters, Safe Schools alliance, Transgender Trend etc.

and personal experience on these websites
childrenoftransitioners.org/ and www.transwidows.com/

and the Evidence Based Social Work Alliance tweeted this (after the previous Archbishop supported a ban on conversion therapy for transpeople)
www.ebswa.org/post/conversion-therapy-proposals-the-children-of-transitioners-speak

Things like this rarely make the national press
www.thesun.co.uk/news/scottish-news/21536021/trans-sexually-banned-befriending-anybody-approval
www.lbc.co.uk/news/convicted-paedophile-given-custody-of-young-girl-and-gets-her-pregnant/,

but diocesan CofE safeguarding teams have dealt with similar issues- (sometimes the result of christians 'being kind' instead of safeguarding):
and more commonly have to balance the fall out between welcoming the dads who decide they are women or traumatised families or victims of abuse (who often won't speak up- they'll just leave and the first the diocese knows is if its an abuse case and they get contacted by the police)

The naivety of many christians is quite astounding ..And then you get to church schools pushing Stonewall and trying to force victims of child abuse and lesbians to ' celebrate' all things trans and get undressed with the opposite sex, and trans teens who want to be affirmed as the opposite sex in school/ church and the congregation/ fellow school pupils
who are under pressure to use wrong sex pronouns or be accused of not being kind.

Churches can rarely welcome everyone- not at the same time anyway due to safeguarding. How can these issues be addressed if no one will face reality?

I’d suggest they need to look at some of the resources in safe schools alliance and consider how it might apply to churches. So, for example, trans woman youth volunteers/workers shouldn’t be supervising girls in areas where it would be inappropriate for a man to, for example overnight or whilst changing. Trans women shouldn’t be meeting vulnerable women alone for prayer/pastoral care, especially in homes.
Kids workers and volunteers should understand that NHS doesn’t advise social transitioning without medical advice as this isn’t a neutral act and so should be advising parents who want to do this to seek advice.
Parish safeguarding officers should know that having a protected characteristic (applying to those who have had a legal change in sex) doesn’t make you exempt from all the normal safeguarding practices and they should be concerned by anyone bringing sexually inappropriate content to children, teens or vulnerable adults regardless of their gender identity.

also questions on the CofE transgender guidance for clergy
www.churchofengland.org/sites/default/files/2018-12/Pastoral%20Guidance-Affirmation-Baptismal-Faith.pdf
the service
-the needs of women and children were not considered by the trans identified male writers, the CofE needs to use an independent safeguarding expert to consult widely on it, and ask questions like

1- should female clergy who may have experienced rape or sexual assault themselves, including by trans identified males, be required to pretend male members of the congregation, (whether or not they are sex offenders) are female?
2- The guidance states clergy should keep someone's birth sex secret if the transperson so wishes- no reference to a GRC (which most transpeople don't have anyway) . How will clergy be required to manage this eg as the Gender Recognition Act confirms men with the PC of gender reassignment, with a GRC remain the 'father' to their children, and those without (most) are men in law as well as in reality?
3-What are the safeguarding implications of a policy that pretends a man is a woman in a church, by nature communal, for example for women and children in the congregation, including those who have experienced abuse, including from trans identified males? How will it create a safe environment for victims to speak up about abuse?
4- what is the impact of this gaslighting and coerced speech on freedom of speech, belief in reality and christian belief for clergy and congregation?
5- given the Cass review and social contagion concerns, what guidance is there for the transgender person on their 'testimony' which the guidance encourages should be shared?
6- Given that the government has specifically refused to legalise 'self ID' and ensured only those with a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria can get a GRC, partly to ensure men with sexual paraphilias (eg autogynephilia) cannot be eligible, why has the Cof E chosen self ID and decided male sexual fetsihes / paraphilias should now be 'celebrated' (quote from guidance) in parish churches?
7- will members of the congregation be banned from church if they cannot pretend men are women, or refuse to be coerced into taking part in male sexual fetishes or pretending to believe in gender ideology?
8- Many churches are making toilets mixed sex. Will the CofE be producing guidance (eg how to check for hidden cameras in toilets to protect women ) for churches and what consideration has been given to women and abuse victims who are unable to attend church events if there are no female only loos?
9- the guidance states how powerful it can be for new names to be recognised in the affirmation service. Will this privilege also be offered to others or is it just for transpeople? eg women fleeing abusive partners who have to change their names for safety eg from stalking, those in witness protection programmes, sex offenders who want to change their names to hide their crimes, children who want to disassociate themselves from offending trans identified fathers? (These are all examples from the last 20 years of parish life).
10- will there be a new service for detransitioners?

and that's just a few...

@Nina2023 these are absolutely excellent questions. As I recall, the only pushback against this liturgy came from conservative evangelicals.

A lot of the C of E has been as woke left as it comes for years sadly...... the church might well split over the marriage issue however. It split from my church in the 1500s. I saw a very good video on youtube today about LFF thing and one church breaking away.

Yes, excellent questions.

We managed to survive women clergy, which I'd argue was as radical as same sex marriage at the time.
I think the speed with which all but the truest diehards embraced women was evidence of the rightness of that decision.
I wonder if we just need another decade for same sex marriage to be accepted.

It's shocking to me, that trans priests are accepted quickly.
Though I suspect they have a boundaries ministry- associate priest or similar- rather than a parish. Could be wrong.

How does this square with:
Thou shalt not bear false witness
and
Thou shalt not covet?

I think the fragrant Bingo is the vicar of the Children's Church in Liverpool.

Just let that sink in for a few minutes.

'For if a preest be foul, on whom we truste,
No wonder is a lewed man to ruste'

Chaucer

It might have seemed quick in the C of E but it was a long time coming. The NZ Anglicans, for example, began ordaining women in the 1970s.